BeechTalk - BT - Citation M2

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 12:45

Username Protected wrote:

If the M2 windshield is not electrically de-iced, how does it work then? Do other Citations have a similar system? Sounds (pun not intended) somewhat of an annoyance, having to wear ANR because of the loud windshield de-icer in your multi-million dollar jet.

All 525 models use hot bleed air for windshield deice. The airflow is noisy but it is rare to need windshield deice.

510 Mustang has electrically heated windows. It is silent but pilots complain with electric window heat on the view becomes fuzzy. Original Mustang has on/off switch for windshield heat. Cessna changed that to a high/low/off switch to try and fix optical distortion when heat is on.

Neither system is perfect.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 12:52

Quote:

The demo pilot was flying, because I was not typed, they would not let me take off.

I would think you could fly from the right seat, but limitations says a typed pilot in the left seat. ( for the cj4, probably for the rest of the CJs also)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 12:53

Username Protected wrote:

If the M2 windshield is not electrically de-iced, how does it work then? Do other Citations have a similar system? Sounds (pun not intended) somewhat of an annoyance, having to wear ANR because of the loud windshield de-icer in your multi-million dollar jet.

All 525 models use hot bleed air for windshield deice. The airflow is noisy but it is rare to need windshield deice.

510 Mustang has electrically heated windows. It is silent but pilots complain with electric window heat on the view becomes fuzzy. Original Mustang has on/off switch for windshield heat. Cessna changed that to a high/low/off switch to try and fix optical distortion when heat is on.

Neither system is perfect.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 13:00

Username Protected wrote:

Quote:

The demo pilot was flying, because I was not typed, they would not let me take off.

I would think you could fly from the right seat, but limitations says a typed pilot in the left seat. ( for the cj4, probably for the rest of the CJs also)

Cessna has their own internal rules on what is allowed on demo flights.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 13:03

Username Protected wrote:

Thanks, Allen. What about Klingon Citations? What system(s) do they use?

Bleed air. All the legacy 500/550/560 Citations use bleed air windshield heat.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 13:07

Quote:

All 525 models use hot bleed air for windshield deice

Except the CJ4, electric on all cockpit windows. On anytime the engines are running, no switches, just temperature controllers. No distortion. It is warm enough to feel it on your face, from the side windows.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 13:08

Username Protected wrote:

Thanks, Allen. What about Klingon Citations? What system(s) do they use?

Bleed air. All the legacy 500/550/560 Citations use bleed air windshield heat.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 13:17

Username Protected wrote:

I didn't say CJ3+... I said CJ3

Ahh, well, there's that whole New vs. Not New thing.

In this case, think Cirrus SF50 vs. M2, not so much M2 vs. CJ3.

The Phenom 100 is often compared to the M2, seems like right in the same envelope, stronger in some respects too.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 13:34

Username Protected wrote:

Except the CJ4, electric on all cockpit windows. On anytime the engines are running, no switches, just temperature controllers. No distortion. It is warm enough to feel it on your face, from the side windows.

I forget who much the CJ4 is not like other 525's.

Cessna originally promised electric heated windshield in the M2. Probably based on the CJ4 design. For whatever reason they cancelled that and made good in other ways on early deliveries of the M2 who had an IOU about the electric windshield.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 13:44

Username Protected wrote:

[
The demo pilot was flying, because I was not typed, they would not let me take off. Cessna interpretation of the rules. I would not have blown the altitude, the speed maybe. As far as I know take off power is the take off detent.

Sorry Charles, I didn't realize he was flying it. My wife and I did the take offs and landings. (Not typed.) The demo pilots barely touched a thing.

Yes, detent for take off. But if you have a level off in your departure, you will have to reduce power, no detent for that. I would guess he just had his hands full. Lower time demo pilot I am thinking?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 13:53

Username Protected wrote:

Probably based on the CJ4 design. For whatever reason they cancelled that and made good in other ways on early deliveries of the M2 who had an IOU about the electric windshield.

I was told it was because of the curves required, they could not pull it off. Probably got too expensive working on it? Not sure but does the M2 require a compound curve or something more extreme, different shape than the CJ4?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 14:26

Username Protected wrote:

Probably based on the CJ4 design. For whatever reason they cancelled that and made good in other ways on early deliveries of the M2 who had an IOU about the electric windshield.

I was told it was because of the curves required, they could not pull it off. Probably got too expensive working on it? Not sure but does the M2 require a compound curve or something more extreme, different shape than the CJ4?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 14:29

A few weeks ago, we were light and it was cold and the CJ2 tried to eat my lunch. Just off the runway the airspeed trend line was quickly heading towards 250KTS so I cranked the AP vertical speed to 5500 and the thing just stood on its tail and climbed. Not quite 20 series lear but close! I'm sure the CJ4 does that on a lot more days than the 2 does. Stuff can come at you fast! I probably should have pulled back the throttle instead of the yolk but I was cleared to 15K so I figured that I'd have time to push it over and accelerate once I got above 10K. There was a moment where I felt behind the airplane. I learned from it and will be more aware of conditions and weight next time - the KA really didn't care, it performed close to the same all the time.

Conversely, I took off hot & heavy out of SDL today and it was a dog (maybe 2200FPM). Caused me to double check that I brought up the flaps and gear.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 14:36

Username Protected wrote:

Ahh, well, there's that whole New vs. Not New thing.

In this case, think Cirrus SF50 vs. M2, not so much M2 vs. CJ3.

The Phenom 100 is often compared to the M2, seems like right in the same envelope, stronger in some respects too.

No doubt it's "new vs. not new". Lot's of folks I know who bought Phenom 100 or HondaJet lasted about a month before they wanted to upgrade. That's why I made the point I made.

If It's my $4.5MM.... I'm not buying an M2.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2018, 14:52

That's precisely why I leased the Citation II and V before deciding if I should purchase.
With the II, I needed the gross weight increase to carry full fuel and pacs I needed. CG issue with full fuel if I flew SP along. Performance in summer wasn't great. Became pretty much a mid-30s plane where I flew. The V was great, but more than needed and difficult to fly SP. Back to the C90.

Citation M2 - good entry level jet?