17 May 2025, 04:09 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 12:45 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3032 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: If the M2 windshield is not electrically de-iced, how does it work then? Do other Citations have a similar system? Sounds (pun not intended) somewhat of an annoyance, having to wear ANR because of the loud windshield de-icer in your multi-million dollar jet. All 525 models use hot bleed air for windshield deice. The airflow is noisy but it is rare to need windshield deice. 510 Mustang has electrically heated windows. It is silent but pilots complain with electric window heat on the view becomes fuzzy. Original Mustang has on/off switch for windshield heat. Cessna changed that to a high/low/off switch to try and fix optical distortion when heat is on. Neither system is perfect.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 12:52 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4746 Post Likes: +2463 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: The demo pilot was flying, because I was not typed, they would not let me take off. I would think you could fly from the right seat, but limitations says a typed pilot in the left seat. ( for the cj4, probably for the rest of the CJs also)
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 12:53 |
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Joined: 07/24/14 Posts: 1896 Post Likes: +2603
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Username Protected wrote: If the M2 windshield is not electrically de-iced, how does it work then? Do other Citations have a similar system? Sounds (pun not intended) somewhat of an annoyance, having to wear ANR because of the loud windshield de-icer in your multi-million dollar jet. All 525 models use hot bleed air for windshield deice. The airflow is noisy but it is rare to need windshield deice. 510 Mustang has electrically heated windows. It is silent but pilots complain with electric window heat on the view becomes fuzzy. Original Mustang has on/off switch for windshield heat. Cessna changed that to a high/low/off switch to try and fix optical distortion when heat is on. Neither system is perfect. Thanks, Allen. What about Klingon Citations? What system(s) do they use?
_________________ Jay
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 13:00 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3032 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: The demo pilot was flying, because I was not typed, they would not let me take off. I would think you could fly from the right seat, but limitations says a typed pilot in the left seat. ( for the cj4, probably for the rest of the CJs also) Cessna has their own internal rules on what is allowed on demo flights.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 13:03 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3032 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Thanks, Allen. What about Klingon Citations? What system(s) do they use? Bleed air. All the legacy 500/550/560 Citations use bleed air windshield heat.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 13:07 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4746 Post Likes: +2463 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: All 525 models use hot bleed air for windshield deice Except the CJ4, electric on all cockpit windows. On anytime the engines are running, no switches, just temperature controllers. No distortion. It is warm enough to feel it on your face, from the side windows.
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 13:08 |
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Joined: 12/31/17 Posts: 1032 Post Likes: +606 Location: KADS
Aircraft: C560
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Username Protected wrote: Thanks, Allen. What about Klingon Citations? What system(s) do they use? Bleed air. All the legacy 500/550/560 Citations use bleed air windshield heat.
I have time in all of the 500/legacy series except the Encore and do not find it to be that loud. You only have it on in decent, to warm the windshield so that it does not fog up after landing, and in icing.
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 13:17 |
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Joined: 01/30/09 Posts: 3634 Post Likes: +2291 Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
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Username Protected wrote: I didn't say CJ3+... I said CJ3 Ahh, well, there's that whole New vs. Not New thing. In this case, think Cirrus SF50 vs. M2, not so much M2 vs. CJ3. The Phenom 100 is often compared to the M2, seems like right in the same envelope, stronger in some respects too.
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 13:34 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3032 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Except the CJ4, electric on all cockpit windows. On anytime the engines are running, no switches, just temperature controllers. No distortion. It is warm enough to feel it on your face, from the side windows.
I forget who much the CJ4 is not like other 525's. Cessna originally promised electric heated windshield in the M2. Probably based on the CJ4 design. For whatever reason they cancelled that and made good in other ways on early deliveries of the M2 who had an IOU about the electric windshield.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 13:44 |
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Joined: 09/16/10 Posts: 9006 Post Likes: +2064
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Username Protected wrote: [ The demo pilot was flying, because I was not typed, they would not let me take off. Cessna interpretation of the rules. I would not have blown the altitude, the speed maybe. As far as I know take off power is the take off detent. Sorry Charles, I didn't realize he was flying it. My wife and I did the take offs and landings. (Not typed.) The demo pilots barely touched a thing. Yes, detent for take off. But if you have a level off in your departure, you will have to reduce power, no detent for that. I would guess he just had his hands full. Lower time demo pilot I am thinking?
_________________ Education cuts, don't heal.
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 13:53 |
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Joined: 09/16/10 Posts: 9006 Post Likes: +2064
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Username Protected wrote: Probably based on the CJ4 design. For whatever reason they cancelled that and made good in other ways on early deliveries of the M2 who had an IOU about the electric windshield. I was told it was because of the curves required, they could not pull it off. Probably got too expensive working on it? Not sure but does the M2 require a compound curve or something more extreme, different shape than the CJ4?
_________________ Education cuts, don't heal.
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 14:26 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3032 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Probably based on the CJ4 design. For whatever reason they cancelled that and made good in other ways on early deliveries of the M2 who had an IOU about the electric windshield. I was told it was because of the curves required, they could not pull it off. Probably got too expensive working on it? Not sure but does the M2 require a compound curve or something more extreme, different shape than the CJ4?
M2 on left, CJ4 on right.
Attachment: 2018-04-27_1424.png
Look at the difference in the outer corner curves.
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Citation M2 - good entry level jet? Posted: 27 Apr 2018, 14:36 |
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Joined: 01/29/08 Posts: 26338 Post Likes: +13079 Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: Ahh, well, there's that whole New vs. Not New thing.
In this case, think Cirrus SF50 vs. M2, not so much M2 vs. CJ3.
The Phenom 100 is often compared to the M2, seems like right in the same envelope, stronger in some respects too. No doubt it's "new vs. not new". Lot's of folks I know who bought Phenom 100 or HondaJet lasted about a month before they wanted to upgrade. That's why I made the point I made. If It's my $4.5MM.... I'm not buying an M2.
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