BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 13:32

My experience is similar to Robert's. Open pilot clause is 2500TT/1000ME/25MM, but with only 5ME and 500TT, my requirement was to get initial (I did RTC) and then be trained and signed off to act as PIC by a named approved pilot or one meeting the open pilot clause above but without a specified number of hours in the 421 being met by me.

We owned a B36TC Bonanza for six years and put 1,000 hours on it flying the family all over the country and loved it (put me in touch with the best aviation forum on the planet after all) and would still love it if I could afford to own two planes. We definitely enjoy the additional capability of the 421C for hauling the growing (size, not quantity) family of four and occasionally a few others around on 700-900 nm trips.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 13:54

Username Protected wrote:

Will a Cessna 421 haul a pilot plus 4 guys and their golf clubs?

I just realized that even though the OP question has been covered more directly by others, I sort of failed to do so. If I assume 200# each for a total of 5 guys (4 plus pilot) and 50# each for clubs/etc., that comes out to 1,250 pounds of people and "baggage" payload (assuming Pilot is playing also). For us that would leave 1,020 pounds (170 gallons) of fuel. At 45/hr block to block fuel and 200 kts that roughs out to 600nm with reserves. Regarding the space, it is definitely not a problem with the clubs in the nose and 5 adults being very comfortable in the cabin.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 14:28

It is slightly amusing to me how common a desire/requirement to carry 4 guys + golf clubs is! I know a TBM owner that removed one seat in the back and fabricated an aluminum stand/cage to hold 4 sets of golf clubs. Surely there are quite a few car trunks and SUV cargo areas designed around golf club bags as well...

(I'm glad I don't have the golf affliction since I would struggle to carry clubs in a Mooney!

)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 14:35

Username Protected wrote:

:D It is slightly amusing to me how common a desire/requirement to carry 4 guys + golf clubs is! I know a TBM owner that removed one seat in the back and fabricated an aluminum stand/cage to hold 4 sets of golf clubs. Surely there are quite a few car trunks and SUV cargo areas designed around golf club bags as well...

(I'm glad I don't have the golf affliction since I would struggle to carry clubs in a Mooney!

)

Scott - for the difference in cost to own/operate the Mooney vs C421, you could pay for brand new clubs and brand new golf wardrobes to be waiting for your and your passengers on every trip!! :lol:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 14:38

Username Protected wrote:

Scott - for the difference in cost to own/operate the Mooney vs C421, you could pay for brand new clubs and brand new golf wardrobes to be waiting for your and your passengers on every trip!! :lol:

Very true, but since I'm not a golfer I just convert those funds into beer and football tickets! :cheers:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 14:51

Username Protected wrote:

The pilot said their insurance requirements include 2500 hrs total time and 1000 hrs multi time! :bugeye:

You have to be very careful how you reduce the power transitioning from cruise to descent. We brought back the power an inch of Manifold Pressure at a time over the descent.

Baloney and baloney.

He high have been talking about the open pilot clause of their insurance, but 2500/1000 is definitely not required for an owner/operator. I got into my 421 with 5 hours multi and 1700 or so total and my insurance required an initial course (I did SimCom) and 25 dual. Not difficult at all.

Also, the 1" per minute thing is bogus. You don't want to jack the power back on any engine, but the one inch thing is just silly.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 14:58

Username Protected wrote:

The pilot said their insurance requirements include 2500 hrs total time and 1000 hrs multi time! :bugeye:

You have to be very careful how you reduce the power transitioning from cruise to descent. We brought back the power an inch of Manifold Pressure at a time over the descent.

Baloney and baloney.

He high have been talking about the open pilot clause of their insurance, but 2500/1000 is definitely not required for an owner/operator. I got into my 421 with 5 hours multi and 1700 or so total and my insurance required an initial course (I did SimCom) and 25 dual. Not difficult at all.

Also, the 1" per minute thing is bogus. You don't want to jack the power back on any engine, but the one inch thing is just silly.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 15:16

Username Protected wrote:

I started out flying the 1" per minute thing until I realized my EDM-760 made this completely unnecessary by showing the rate of cooling. I picked an arbitrary number of 20 degrees and just stay under that (I have no idea what rate of cooling is harmful, if any). This gets me from the 32.5" cruise setting to the 20.5" approach setting in way faster than 12 minutes. The time I see the fastest cooling is when I descend, even without touching the throttles.

The 421B I flew in did not have an Engine Monitoring System which was an absolute shock to me. They had just installed GTN 650/750 and Aspen PFD and hadn't added a EMS. I think they just opt to run very conservatively as a result, running conservative fuel flows and very slow throttle back.

It's good to hear that these are very conservative practices and that it can be operated less conservatively with EMS.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 15:40

421 pilots just need a basic knowlege and understanding of the GTISO520 engines and some common sense. Engine monitors make it easier, but remember for thousands of hours these engines went to TBO with just good power management. Cylinder problems etc on some engines can be the fault of the pilot or poor maintaince.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 16:45

And/or poor machining from the start leads to valve problems and everyone pointing at the Pilot.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 16:53

Username Protected wrote:

I had the opportunity to fly in a C421B this past week on a trip from OH to SC. What a great bird. :thumbup:

The owner had just redone the interior and upgraded the avionics to GTN 750/GTN 650 and a single Aspen on the pilot's side. We did 190-200 kts at FL190 burning 20-21gph per side, running ROP. The roominess in the cabin was just fantastic, pressurization was awesome and the smoothness and sound levels in the cabin were great. None of the passengers felt the need to wear headsets. The owner said they had hourly costs worked down to the $350-400 / hr range but they also had a sweetheart deal on fuel at their home base.

There is a lot going on up front and it's obvious that a great deal of training and recurring training would be required to stay safe and insurable in this airplane. The pilot said their insurance requirements include 2500 hrs total time and 1000 hrs multi time! :bugeye:

You have to be very careful how you reduce the power transitioning from cruise to descent. We brought back the power an inch of Manifold Pressure at a time over the descent. I'm also told engine outs can be quite exciting and with all the systems, there's a lot going on.

That being said, for carrying 4-5 adults and bags, the C421 is exceptionally capable. My missions could never justify the machine but I thought to myself I could REALLY get used to it. I really need to stop flying around in machines like this...

It is amazing to me how many aircraft owners really have no clue what they are reciting when they read an open pilot clause like this or where or how it applies (case in point with this aircraft owner and what he told you). As many have pointed out the minimums you are referring to are just that - open pilot language. Insurance carriers always set these 'minimums' high and VERY conservative as the objective of this open pilot language is having pilots be approved to operate the aircraft without any formal notice to the insurance carrier (such as over a weekend or after business hours when you are unable to get formal approval for a pilot). Use the open pilot as a guide only and clearly pilots with far less experience can be approved and named on the policy as pilots need only provide a pilot form which the broker submitts to the underwriter and training (if applicable) is followed as required by the insurance carrier.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 17:02

Username Protected wrote:

And/or poor machining from the start leads to valve problems and everyone pointing at the Pilot.

True, but that fact can apply to any engine.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 17:13

The 421 is a roomy airplane. They are nice to ride in the back of, but I personally do not find any of the twin Cessnsas enjoyable to fly. The control harmony is nothing like a Baron.

Also, some of the stuff in this thread is pretty ridiculous. Someone claims "190+ knots on 15GPH per side, " and another "$350 per hour operating costs." :liar:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 17:55

Username Protected wrote:

The 421 is a roomy airplane. They are nice to ride in the back of, but I personally do not find any of the twin Cessnsas enjoyable to fly. The control harmony is nothing like a Baron.

Also, some of the stuff in this thread is pretty ridiculous. Someone claims "190+ knots on 15GPH per side, " and another "$350 per hour operating costs." :liar:

$350/hour I agree is hard to believe. 190 knots on 15g/side is book at the right altitude. STD temp at FL250 at 51.7% power the book says 194 KTAS on 31 gph. The book is aggressive with its leaning recommendations and I don't use them, but it's doable.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2013, 18:19

Username Protected wrote:

The 421 is a roomy airplane. They are nice to ride in the back of, but I personally do not find any of the twin Cessnsas enjoyable to fly. The control harmony is nothing like a Baron.

Also, some of the stuff in this thread is pretty ridiculous. Someone claims "190+ knots on 15GPH per side, " and another "$350 per hour operating costs." :liar:

This might be true for a 421B and other tip tank Cessna twins. This statement does not apply to the 421C which has a different wing and tail than 421B's. The 421C has the early Citation wet wing (no tip tanks) a different and better vertical stabilizer and rudder. The 421C is very enjoyable to fly and should not be compared to a 421B.
You could use a 350 dollar number for direct operating costs. The real cost per hour based on 100 hours per year with everything included is more like 600 dollars per hour or 10 dollars a minute. ROP at altitude, 18 a side or 36/37 GPH total a 421C will true about 200 to 210 knots. If you want to burn 40 to 41 GPH it will go a lot faster. It just depends on how much fuel you want to burn.