BeechTalk - BT - Eclipse jet to be built in Poland, $2.6-2.8 million

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 07:52

Comments from Paul Bertorelli...

The "Eclipse 550" is to fly at FL410 and and go 360 knots, and he says,

"If Eclipse can't sell 30 to 50 of these a year minimum to a global market, it's time to knock out the lights in GA and move on to lawn bowling."

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwe ... 146-1.html

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 08:43

Username Protected wrote:

Comments from Paul Bertorelli...

The "Eclipse 550" is to fly at FL410 and and go 360 knots, and he says,

"If Eclipse can't sell 30 to 50 of these a year minimum to a global market, it's time to knock out the lights in GA and move on to lawn bowling."

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwe ... 146-1.html

After talking to Ted about his sweet new ride and seeing the pics of the PFD, I believe the current eclipse can already do 360 knots at FL410.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 12:12

Username Protected wrote:

After talking to Ted about his sweet new ride and seeing the pics of the PFD, I believe the current eclipse can already do 360 knots at FL410.

Yes, the Eclipse 550 is basically the same airframe and engines with the electronics completed as they originally promised nearly a decade ago, i.e. autopilot with autothrottles, etc.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 12:28

Username Protected wrote:

After talking to Ted about his sweet new ride and seeing the pics of the PFD, I believe the current eclipse can already do 360 knots at FL410.

Of course it can. The plane hasn't changed. The point is, they are trying to start building it again.

I do believe there is a reasonable market for it. Hope it happens.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 13:04

Username Protected wrote:

I do believe there is a reasonable market for it.

Lots of people seem to think this. But ask yourself - if there wasn't a reasonable market for it before, when the price was ~$1.8M, why would there be a reasonable market for it at $2.8M?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 13:07

Username Protected wrote:

I do believe there is a reasonable market for it.

Lots of people seem to think this. But ask yourself - if there wasn't a reasonable market for it before, when the price was ~$1.8M, why would there be a reasonable market for it at $2.8M?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 13:08

Username Protected wrote:

I do believe there is a reasonable market for it.

Lots of people seem to think this. But ask yourself - if there wasn't a reasonable market for it before, when the price was ~$1.8M, why would there be a reasonable market for it at $2.8M?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 13:17

On a standard day in the mid-high 30s, I see 335 KTAS. The airplane I am flying does not have the speed mods, it was one of the first produced. The later ones will do an honest 360.

Since I am cheap, I typically fly at FL400 or Fl410 which will yield 310kts on just 330 lbs. Weight and temperature do have a pretty big impact on speed ....

I think Eclipse Aerospace is absolutely dreaming. Fully optioned, they are close to $3m. I am not in the market for a new jet, but if I was, there is no way in hell I would even consider one at that price. In fact, I would not even consider a used IFMS airplane at the $1.5-1.6m you can buy one for. My money would be on a Citation Mustang or a Phenom 100.

The reason I have this disposition is mostly because of my feelings about the company, and no so much because of anything wrong with the airplane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 13:33

You pay a little more for the Mustang. Service is always the big factor with these expensive planes.

With Cessna if you brake down anywhere they will have you back in the air within 24 hours in most cases. What is the service package they are offering with Eclipse? Not a very big company and if they are only selling 40-50 airplanes a year good luck with the service.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 13:53

Username Protected wrote:

What is the service package they are offering with Eclipse? Not a very big company and if they are only selling 40-50 airplanes a year good luck with the service.

50 airplanes a year?!?!? There is no way that will happen.

Their service package is to squeeze customers based on how much they can afford, not what something 'should' cost. They change the prices as they feel like it. Basically if you checked the price on a part one year ago and it was $18,000, then when you need it 10 months later the price will be $35,000- just because you are AOG.

EAI requires you to buy everything through them. Example- You can buy the same exact tire directly from Michelin for half the price, but it would not technically be legal to put it on your airplane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 13:54

When I was Phenom 100 shopping I had plenty of 2013 models offered to me for $2.8 million. I'd take the Phenom 100 in a second over the Eclipse.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 14:02

Username Protected wrote:

I think Eclipse Aerospace is absolutely dreaming.

Well there's my answer from the "horses mouth". I too think they are dreaming at that price. Go get a Cessna. Better yet an older Lear. Even the mustang is essentially being redone (IMHO) with the M2 at not a whole lot more.

I admired the "apparent" innovation of the Eclipse, but it was not quite pure innovation; lot of marketing. Don't get me wrong: I hope the new company makes it.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 14:54

Username Protected wrote:

EAI requires you to buy everything through them. Example- You can buy the same exact tire directly from Michelin for half the price, but it would not technically be legal to put it on your airplane.

And that is why they will fail. Do they not have similar assinine rules for maintenance and training? Same thing happened with the Thielert diesel, every couple hundred hours you had to take a part off the engine and mail it to them in Germany so they could inspect it. A business plan such as this will never survive very long. How rational people look at the Eclipse and say "yup, that's a good deal" is beyond me.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 15:41

Username Protected wrote:

Eclipse spokesman Andrew Broom told reporters that by 2008 the company should be stir-welding about 1,000 of the six-place twinjets each year (the order book is now 2,400 strong) to fill a demand that could see 15,000 very light jets (VLJs) in the air by the end of the decade. "It depends on what the market bears," Broom told The Associated Press. Aviation consultant Michael Boyd said he predicts there will be a "stampede" of customers for the very light jets that are soon coming to the market. Cessna hopes to have ready for customers its Mustang (and Adam its A700) by year-end. All this while one new contender (currently flying its research prototype, the Spectrum 33) already has plans to vault the revolutionary field to the next level of performance economy and comfort. Meanwhile, back at Eclipse, CEO Vern Raburn told those at the ceremony the first bit of welding and drilling "is all part of the process of becoming a successful and enduring company." Raburn later told The Associated Press he considered it the "beginning of a whole new era in aviation." While the June 30 and Sept. 29 dates still loom, company officials are confident the production line will keep moving and that the roughest part of the road lies behind. "...we're pretty confident that any changes will be minor," Broom told The Associated Press.

oh, it's almost surreal to go back to those old statements and interviews from Eclipse.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Feb 2013, 16:48

Username Protected wrote:

How rational people look at the Eclipse and say "yup, that's a good deal" is beyond me.

Look at a 1.0-1.3 Eclipse for $600k-$800k and for the 'right' operator, there is nothing on the market that even comes close to touching this jet.

However, when you start talking $1.5m (for an upgraded 500) or $2.8m for a new 550, one has to start looking at other airplanes.