BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2011, 13:41

Username Protected wrote:

To me, you're comparing apples and oranges. A CJ weighs how many pounds? What's the fuel burn? Cabin class that has to go high and far with a lot of folks to make any sense.

Mustang is more the size of a,King Air. Cabin class with a potty. I flew one: very nice, but range with reserves wasn't much better than my Baron.

Eclipse is closer to my 58P. Fits in the same hanger. Not cabin class. Much more efficient for a couple folks. If the numbers are cooked, I'd really appreciate knowing how. FL410 isn't going to happen a lot, but one doesn't have to plan using those numbers.

Dave

I think, after all the discussion of Dave's "size meter" that Tyler and Dave are saying the exact same thing about the comparisons. Dave never compared the CJ's to the King Airs but only the Mustang to the King Airs in size.

I think your size meter is out of calibration

. A CJ isn't close to the size of a KA (just try moving about in both and you'll quickly feel that). Also, i think a mustang and eclipse are pretty close (I've been in an eclipse, but not a mustang...only see pics and layout)A CJ is pretty great for sure, and your saying that it's a different class than the eclipse is quite true.

Also, the "make any sense" thing is all relative. I think you would find most personally owned CJ's fly with only 1 to 2 on board most of the time. Hell, I know gulfstreams that fly with 1 or 2 passengers a good portion of the time (that's no joke)....and they also fly it without hesitation on as short of trips as 50 nm (again, no joke, I can show you the flight aware).

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2011, 18:47

Username Protected wrote:

No sense in dwelling on this. Last time I looked at a CJ it was more than three times the weight of Eclipse. Engines are much less efficient.

King Air and Mustang are close in size, of course, different engines. Mustang was almost 3.5 million last I looked.

Best,

Dave

They're all asking in the $2.5 million range. 2009-2010 MY
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 169923.htm?

Mustang burns 100GPH block. What's an Eclipse burn? Can't be much less if at all.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2011, 18:49

Username Protected wrote:

No sense in dwelling on this. Last time I looked at a CJ it was more than three times the weight of Eclipse. Engines are much less efficient.

King Air and Mustang are close in size, of course, different engines. Mustang was almost 3.5 million last I looked.

Best,

Dave

They're all asking in the $2.5 million range. 2009-2010 MY
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 169923.htm?

Mustang burns 100GPH block. What's an Eclipse burn? Can't be much less if at all.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2011, 19:31

Is the Eclipse you were looking at new from Eclipse?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2011, 20:01

Kent Ewing, current President of BPPP, (and Beechtalker) was previously the Chief pilot for Eclipse. He still is very involved in Eclipse mentoring and pilot training. He would be an excellent source of information.
Chuck Cook

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2011, 21:35

I followed the Eclipse from the beginning, when it was introduced at Oshkosh. I thought it was an aviation cluster FU**.
Since they spent over a billion dollars and went broke I was right.
About a year ago I got to fly one and fell in love! I guess if you have enough money you can build a good airplane by trial and error. The plane is so quiet and smooth its incredible. I have since flown in several from the left seat, right seat and also been a passenger in the back. The sound level is so low you don't even need headsets. The performance is very good with about 50 to 55 GPH fuel flow. The fuel per mile traveled is not too much more than my Baron. The big problem is they break, all of the time and parts are astronomical. It would take about 300k to update one at the present time so you can really fly in IMC. Parts alone could run 75k per year. The computer system is always giving problems.
and the fire protection system is terrible and will be expensive to update when the fix comes out.
Even with all of that said, if I could sell some real estate I would get one

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2011, 23:32

I've read here, two or three times now, how quiet these little jets are inside the cockpit.

That surprises me. I've never flown in one but have been on the ramp a couple of times when one was either starting up and taking off or coming in and shutting down. Those engines have an incredibly piercing shrill to them. Felt it in my teeth :bugeye:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2011, 01:51

Username Protected wrote:

I've read here, two or three times now, how quiet these little jets are inside the cockpit.

That surprises me. I've never flown in one but have been on the ramp a couple of times when one was either starting up and taking off or coming in and shutting down. Those engines have an incredibly piercing shrill to them. Felt it in my teeth :bugeye:

I can tell you from recent experience that riding in a Cessna Mustang is no different than riding in the ATD as far as sound levels........but a helluva lot more fun. I had hoped to listen in on the comms but there's no backseat jacks and no need for headsets.

I'm still not quite sure what to make of the potty seat. It is expensive real estate to be flying around with no real purpose - a necessary evil.

I guess nobody is perfect....we've had a gear issue and a failed GDU in the first 50 hours. The good thing is that there is no such thing as being AOG in a new Cessna jet. Cessna has a nice taxi service :thumbup:

.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2011, 03:01

Username Protected wrote:

How do you fit six people in an Eclipse? They are only certified for five seats! I can't imagine even flying with five adults in an Eclipse the fifth seat is pretty tight.

Russ, the Eclipse comes standard with 5 seats. An optional configuration includes 6 seats. It is certified for 6. Last year my two sons, a nephew and my brother, all five of us grown men, flew his Eclipse to the Grand Canyon with our gear for a hike down to the river and back. We did so in one day so the luggage was light. Around 30 lbs. each. We flew to Oakland, CA, and several other destinations. Room for five was great and definately not an issue. With six seats getting to the back two could be tricky.

He has had it upgraded with a coupled GPS. He flies a fair number of Angel Flights, generally double legs. His maintenance costs are considerably less then mentioned in this thread, however it is certainly not nearly as beefy a craft as the CJ or Mustang. I can see where damage could be caused depending upon how it's flown.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2011, 11:15

Thanks

It can be a six seater. :thumbup:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2011, 12:03

Same landing speed as my (former) T206. Build like a Sherman tank. Faster than a KA (with significantly less fuel burn). Can actually carry people, fuel, and cargo - all at the same time. Highly regarded, strong resale:

http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/00-def/main/scripts/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Downloads/Brochures/PC-12%20NG%20Just%20the%20Facts.pdf

I know, the acquisition price is steep. But I know 2 Cirrus drivers that transitioned to 2000 models (1.8ish). They were able to solo in 50 hours, and could actually get insurance. The plane is easy to fly and land (I've done both). It handles the bumps beautifully. Passengers love it.

Fitting into a t-hangar - ain't gonna happen.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Feb 2011, 11:43

Username Protected wrote:

Had a wonderful flight this afternoon. The plane is very quiet; almost didn't need headsets. We had to stay under Class B until we got out awhile, but then climbed at about 160 knots and 2,500 feet per minute up to 10,000 where we played.

Did a couple turns and just got a general feel for the plane. It's nice and I could get comfortable pretty quickly in it. From the P Baron, it would be a pretty easy transition. It was interesting to see the pilot do an approach; he came in slower than I do in the Baron. Evidently, folks were landing a bit fast in these and really wearing out brakes. It could be a bit difficult to slow while descending and keeping the engines at decent power in case one needs to go around. Speed management was very important. Came over the fence about 84 knots and touched down below 70 and let it roll out on the runway.

Afterward, we had a discussion about how things would work and they have backed away from offering block time. The plane is one of the late serial numbers and the factory has told them (according to the owners) that it can be upgraded and will cost a lot to get the final certifications: FIKI, cert to FL410, panel upgrade, etc. The owner wants to get some capital out rather than off set operating expenses. He really doesn't want folks flying the plane that aren't owners and won't care for it properly.

The current proposal is for folks to become a one-quarter owner by putting a 100,000 deposit in escrow until the plane is upgraded. When two folks sign up, he will bring it to the factory to be completed. If not done in 90 days, the escrow will be returned. There is also a monthly overhead expense for the hanger, insurance and management. They have $5MM in liability insurance and hull coverage. There is also an hourly reserve put aside.

I'll read through the contract, but am hesitant to get into a plane that I know has to be fixed for this much money. Once fixed, if that happens, Eclipse is still a bit iffy as to warranties and service.

Anyway, wonderful little plane. Would love to fly it, but am still not convinced it will be supported as well as some other choices.

Best,

Dave

Dave: One of the reasons I purchased a P-Baron was that it was to be my transition aircraft
into a jet. Complex, Pressurized, High Altitude ( weather and pressurization experiences,etc) I thought the single pilot era was upon us a few years back and there would be many choices. After reviewing all of the aircraft in the marketplace I decided on a Mustang...go with the people that have been making jets for 40 plus years......
I am not selling my P....love it and I can safely operate it solo which I will not do with any jet aircraft. My POV :pilot:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Feb 2011, 23:25

Username Protected wrote:

It's like a Baron. You have to want to fly an Eclipse to own one. Pretty simple. I get it why someone would want to fly one. :thumbup:

The point is, for the price of an Eclipse, there are a lot of bad ass airplanes. Why choose an Eclipse when you can have a late model CJ1+ or a Mustang?