Tom you guys keep arguing about the slant of the tail number and I’ll take the free airplane... I agree I’d have different graphics, but expect the N# is a decal and I can change it as soon as it’s in my hangar and OK City says it’s mine….

I hear the Paint Scheme detractors all the time in Warbirds.
What I tell them is get your own and paint it how you want to.
Heck, I know a guy who had his P-51D adorned with Jelly Bellies!

Why would you do it??? lol

Sponsorship pays bills.

Chuck: Whoa! When did "free plane" enter the chat?

All: I agree with the "paint it like you want to" philosophy, and especially with "paint it like the guy paying the bills asks for". But this is a factory airplane with all the attention that comes with a new delivery. The design could be anything. This "draw a straight line from the stabilizer to scoop" design came in the later 850/910 and I have never cared that much for that design. That's just me. Daher is a very well ran company so they must hae "reasons".

Also, you have no idea how much I would like to get back into the TBM regardless of paint design (or even condition).

I bought a 2008 TBM850 (with a partner) a little over a year ago. I looked closely at legacy Citation (thanks to Mike C's posts on this board) and twin turboprop alternatives. My reasons for going with the TBM:

• more airports available - in the first year of ownership I've been into fields as short as 2600'. Not often, but there were missions that I simply could not do in a jet. I met a friend who flies a Phenom 100 at MYEB and he had to charter from MYEH to get in. Separately, you can't go to CYTZ in a jet.
• systems complexity - I expect to fly no more than 100 hours a year, sometimes going a month between flights. The relative simplicity of the TBM means I feel confident and proficient at operating the airplane. I hear losing an engine is a non-issue in a jet given the small moment arm on the engines, but I don't have a MEL anyways, sure I could get it but insurance would probably be killer.
• depreciation - the used TBM market has held up very well, better than the used jet market as far as I can tell.
• mid altitude capability - being based at KHPN, I'm often held to 8000 until leaving N90 airspace. Sometimes I'm stuck below FL200 for 100+ miles. Judging from the complaints of "slowtation" pilots, I don't expect ATC to be much kinder if I was in a legacy Citation. My understanding is that this is a huge range and speed killer in jets. The TBM has the flexibility to cruise in the high teens VFR if needed; in big winter headwinds it's sometimes the most efficient choice.
• operating cost - probably not that different, but emotionally I had a hard time thinking that I was going to be paying a "jet tax" at every FBO for handling / overnights.

People talk about getting stuck in the weather with a FL310 ceiling but enroute weather has almost never been an issue for me. The only time I wish I had a higher ceiling was crossing the front range with mountain wave & forcing - had to spend 30 seconds in a cloud at FL310 that was pretty bumpy and had tons of ice. I probably would have been over it at FL400. But overall I'd much rather have a bigger antenna to pick through terminal weather vs. being able to cruise 10000 higher.

All that said... you won't see me in line to buy a new plane from either Daher or Epic.

With 4000 ft of runway, that's a policy problem, not a technical one. They ban jets for some reason there.

Under 3000 ft is doable, with weight reductions and care, but a turboprop is better suited to really short fields (though my MU2 really can't use fields shorter than my Citation).


What do you perceive is complex about Citation systems? Very few are affected by having two engines, and some are easier for having two.


Nearly all well kept Citations have appreciated significantly in the last 5 years. I probably can sell mine for double what I paid. Since I paid less to buy it than a TBM typically would cost, I'm also less exposed to a market downturn.


You can observe the altitudes of jets leaving KHPN to see what they get, which will generally be higher than turboprops. On arrivals, the altitudes for jets are usually above the turboprops, too.

For example, out of KHPN:

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight ... /KHPN/KCHS

FL430 in 27 minutes.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight ... /KHPN/KVRB

FL400 in 22 minutes.


They generally keep jets higher.


Not really if not excessive. The time spent in a level off gaining speed is then converting to a high climb rate so you don't lose as much time to altitude as you would think, as the above examples show.


The turboprops go low for headwinds because they are slow.

The jets go high for headwinds because they are fast. The strategy is entirely different.

I once gained 50 knots groundspeed by climbing from FL430 to FL450 in a headwind.


The "jet tax" isn't too bad, though it exists. Parking seems to be the biggest difference.

If you count the sunk cost of capital, then I think I am flying cheaper than you in my Citation V. In terms of direct operating cost, the TBM will be less mainly due to fuel.


Biggest benefit of higher is being able to see thunderstorms far more clearly visually. I don't like embedded storms where you rely solely on the radar.

A further advantage is that the jet is faster so you can take a longer diversion to go around things go any given increase in flight time. A 30 minute diversion can be 200 miles around something.

Mike C.

I forgot another important point - TBM fits in T-hangars at HPN, Citation Mustang maybe, anything bigger no.

That's a big difference in opex vs. in the community hangar, I forget the exact amount but it's at least $2k/month difference.

There are those who spend $4K/month for a Citation, typically at dense metro airports at high brand FBOs.

I spend $720/month at a rural airport, valet service in a community hangar.

Hangars are a legitimate factor in airplane selection.

Mike C.

Wow.

$5.82M at 8% per year cost of money is $465K/year.

I can't afford it.

I fly a Citation V instead.

Mike C.

There are those who spend $4K/month for a Citation, typically at dense metro airports at high brand FBOs.

I spend $720/month at a rural airport, valet service in a community hangar.

Hangars are a legitimate factor in airplane selection.

Mike C.