King Air 350 Cabin Dimensions: 4'10" H x 4''6" W x 19'2" L
Piaggio Cabin Dimensions: 5'8" H x 6'1" W x 14'9 L

So the Piaggio is massively wider and taller, though shorter.

The Piaggio also performs similarly in speed and ceiling to the smaller Citations, but with better range, payload, bathroom, and fuel economy. Plus it has hot wings, reverse thrust, lower cabin altitude, vastly better performance in turbulence, no required type rating, and is much quieter on the inside. Does require a little more runway.

Should be in the budget for any Citation owner.
Ed

The King Air market has never really worked on the fundamentals. The small ones are slow and use a lot of fuel. The maintenance costs are high. The big ones are expensive to get and operate.

They sell due to brand loyalty and marketing. They don't sell on the numbers, they never have. Lots of other planes run circles around them numbers wise.

PC-12 and TBM made a dent, but not much of one. Denali will be the same. King Airs will still be bought by people who buy King Airs.

Mike C.

Many guys cant fly single engine for corp reasons so the KA is an option to cover that limitation.

The Piaggo is amazing but can’t really compare to the parts and service options to the KA or Citation.

I have said this before but my good friend got one and it ate his lunch and dinner. Parts and maintenance was really difficult. I know that’s only one example but it’s the only one I have. He sold it and got out of avaition all together. It ruined it for him. I tried to get him to partner with me on my citation and he was just too burnt out from the Piaggio experience. But yes on paper it’s amazing and the cabin is in its own class.

Mike

While not Vmc, there have been (at least) two takeoff accidents in CE500s and one in a 525 in the last 12 months.

Midland, TX, Pagosa Springs, CO, and Mesquite, TX. 2/3 of these were fatal to all occupants.

These are just the ones I’m personally aware of.

Robert

On a related note, I am having a dispute with my neighbor over our choices in cutlery.

I prefer my solid gold knives, forks and spoons while Marc maintains that his titanium cutlery is superior, simply because it's more durable.

I contend that that I can replace several golden spoons and still be ahead on cost over one titanium spoon and you're more likely to lose one of your spoons than you are to take it beyond it's useful service life anyway. Therefore, the solid gold is definitely the smarter choice economically speaking.

I know what most of you are probably thinking; the titanium is definitely lighter and stronger than the gold. I don't dispute this.

This begs a couple of questions; How much strength is necessary? Realistically both can handle 150% of the required load. (Excepting the steak knives, but that's another issue entirely and I am not getting into that right now). The other main issue is weight. Yes the titanium is lighter, but is that really a feature or a vice.

I really prefer the heftier feel of the solid gold, not to mention the obvious "luxury look" of gold while titanium, let's face it, has a much, much lower bling rating. I mean, to the uninformed the titanium could be mistaken for a cheap grocery store grade. Well until you picked it up and felt the feather like weight but we are talking primary the visual impact right now.


Thoughts?

But I prefer my lead plates and cups. Why you may ask:

Lead is soft and easily shaped metal, making it ideal for crafting intricate dishware.
Lead resists corrosion and lasts a long time.
Lead gives a heavy, “luxurious” feel that is widely believed to indicate high status.
When polished, lead looks bright and attractive, resembling silver.
Cheaper than silver or pewter but looked similar.
Lead is great for radiation shielding. You never know when big brother or Martians will be shooting death rays at your house.

Wow! You guys have been busy.

I only have a sec, but will try to hit the high points.

Piaggio vs King Air 350 isn't a fair comparison, the King Air 350 has a double club, so as nice as the interior of the Piaggio is, it doesn't seat 8 adults comfortably.

The King Air also has better range than the Piaggio.

The King Air 350 is a big airplane, it's hard to compare it to any other turboprop, if your mission is to carry 8 adults, it is one of the few aircraft smaller than a mid-sized jet that will do it. That's one of the reasons we are comparing the 350 with the Citation V, depending on the interior, the V will do it.

As far as op cost, I will share that when I get a chance, I have shared it before, it will not match Mike C.'s numbers because he leaves engine reserves out. It will be a side-by-side comparison that is apples to apples.

Here's the deal, if you fly 800nm legs or less, the King Air is typically more economical, if you fly longer legs, the V usually wins.

We need Mike C. to buy a King Air so we can find out just how cheap you can operate one!

Mike C. is right, the king Air loses on paper in most categories to some other aircraft, but it does reasonably well in all categories. It isn't the Hare, it's the Turtle.

On the safety question, no doubt jets are safer than turboprops, but that is not saying turboprops are dangerous, just that private jets are extremely safe.

As far as PLM, it is real. I have been in a King Air when it happened. As mentioned it does deactivate auto-feather and that is a BIG deal. It is an especially big deal on a 350 with 1050HP on the other side and a big ol 4 or 5 blade prop hanging off the left side like a sheet of plywood.

If you think you have time to feather the prop and save it... I have a few videos for you to watch.

Flight Safety seems to downplay this risk... even though one of the affected airplanes crashed into their building. Ironic.

CHECK YOUR FRICTION LOCKS.

I stole a plastic spork from the FBO. I do not belong in this thread.

I stole a plastic spork from the FBO. I do not belong in this thread.

That statement ignores facts that don't fit your narrative.

There are almost as many King Airs in Government and military service as there are Citation Vs in existence. Did they all buy for brand loyalty and marketing?

Hoe about the hundreds of King Airs in medevac service worldwide? Are those operated for marketing purposes?

The 1000+ KAs in charter service - are they all owned by idiots who are so brand loyal that they forget they're in business to make a buck?

The Citation V is a better plane for YOU. The rest of the world is not the same as you.

The KA series fills far more missions than the Citation V, and that why 10x as many of them rolled off the factory floor. Arguing that the KA is only bought by idiots without considering that you're blinded by your own mission requirements is a very narrow point of view.

I stole a plastic spork from the FBO. I do not belong in this thread.

Government purchasing does seem to be like that many times.


I keep asking why people buy King Airs and no one produces a specific answer. All I get is vague "it fits their mission" type answers. What is that mission, exactly, and why does the King Air do it better than other aircraft?

Mike C.

"no one produces a specific answer"

Totally false.

If you haven't seen the missions you're not paying attention. I listed 4 of them in the message you quoted! Several KA advantages have been listed in this thread alone - and no, I'm not going to do your work for you and go find them. It's clear you have an agenda and aren't interested in facts.

Government purchasing does seem to be like that many times.


I keep asking why people buy King Airs and no one produces a specific answer. All I get is vague "it fits their mission" type answers. What is that mission, exactly, and why does the King Air do it better than other aircraft?

Mike C.

I did.

Robert