Meanwhile, back in JT15D land, we're not having those kind of problems.

The Mustang fleet is having loaner shortages as well.

Mike C.

How many new Mustang or Eclipse engines (610s or 615s) are they building or 731s or 331s? Not many. But there are lots of parts and lots of commonality on the JT15D. They aren't building any Bravo or Encore 500 series; I'd be much more worried about that.

You left out the option of them charging a reasonable fee for reasonable service while making a reasonable profit. If they can't make a profit on what they charge, then the problem is their gross inefficiency.

Doing an HSI and an OH should not cost more than the engines new. This is about where the program costs are now.

Plus they had all that cash to invest and make returns on while you clock engine hours.

The sad part is that you can't choose to go off program because they purposefully charge more for off program service than if you stayed on. If you could go off program, and invest that money on your own, you'd have enough to pay for the engine work and you wouldn't lose it with contract term changes or other traps. Plus you can then insure the aircraft for less and save money. Right now, people buy insurance that covers both the actual aircraft value and the perceived value of the program at Williams. You are insuring a promise from Williams, not any actual asset.

Mike C.

The point was that Pratt is in no position to attempt to cut into Williams market, that’s all. Mike had to turn it into a JT15 conversation.

You named the thread. It is supposed to be about legacy Citations, most of which are JT15D powered.

Mike C.

You named the thread. It is supposed to be about legacy Citations, most of which are JT15D powered.

Mike C.

Hi Mike!

Happy to help. I bought them from here: https://aircraftlighting.com/products/l ... ing-light/

It's the L1309W (W is for warm). I believe they also have a cooler color option but my wife likes her lights on the warm side (decries pure white or blue tinged as being too "Battlestar Galactica"). I replaced all of the cabin lights plus the two that shine on the instrument panel from above and just behind the flight deck seats. I never figured out how to open the two at the front of the flight deck ceiling next to the air vents but have never used those lights anyway so stopped trying.

Williams explaining their pricing reminds me of the web that the Mylan CEO spun when asked why a shot of adrenaline costs $600 retail and about 50 cents to make. I think they are about $2 in Mexico.

It sounds great, makes no sense if you listen closely, and leaves you confused. It's the Chewbacca defense.

I think Williams is owned by PE? Whoever it is, I'm sure they are interested in making as much revenue from their customers as they can without causing blowback. It's their job to find that line, push it, and have a solid PR strategy to explain it.

I'd wondered why approach plate databases, which should cost next to nothing, are thousands of dollars. Then I worked at Jeppesen and saw how astonishingly inefficient everything was. Without competition, over time the price expands to fill what the market will bear.

Aviation also suffers from bad case of oligopoly. It's not capitalism and not the free market at work, it's a sort of techno-feudalism that arises from this unholy unity of anointed companies, that get the keys to the riches, and then everyone else running around for scraps. Come to think of it, sounds pretty much like the Fed and the banking system...

We've made our own bed.

Yep

Excellent! I did some more digging and realized I have a side by side picture. Stock on the right, LED on the left.

You left out the option of them charging a reasonable fee for reasonable service while making a reasonable profit. If they can't make a profit on what they charge, then the problem is their gross inefficiency.

Doing an HSI and an OH should not cost more than the engines new. This is about where the program costs are now.

Plus they had all that cash to invest and make returns on while you clock engine hours.

The sad part is that you can't choose to go off program because they purposefully charge more for off program service than if you stayed on. If you could go off program, and invest that money on your own, you'd have enough to pay for the engine work and you wouldn't lose it with contract term changes or other traps. Plus you can then insure the aircraft for less and save money. Right now, people buy insurance that covers both the actual aircraft value and the perceived value of the program at Williams. You are insuring a promise from Williams, not any actual asset.

Mike C.

CJP reached out to Williams and the answers they got are concerning. They foretell a pretty sizable increase in 2025.

Williams had the usual litany of excuses. Labor, materials, vendors increasing. Oddly, they mentioned carbon steel going up in price (that's under $1/lb, can't be more than $300 of it in an engine). Raw materials is a red herring.


Mike C.

So Williams excuse is that Williams has increased the price of their parts? That's circular reasoning there.


The raw materials in an engine are insignificant factor in the parts prices. Titanium is about $30 per lbs and there isn't that much of it in the engine, for example. Carbon steel, something Williams mentioned, is under $1 per lbs. A 15 lbs turbine wheel costing $50K has nothing to do with raw materials.

At this point, there's a business to be had to take an FJ44, copy it part by part, recertify it, and sell it. Any engine over ~15 years old has no parts whose patents haven't run out. There's nothing legally preventing someone from creating a duplicate engine and selling it.

Mike C.

Excellent idea. You can sell it as a paperweight, or a lawn ornament, or a novelty prize at the fair.

But without PMA you’re not selling it to anyone who owns an aircraft. Recertification will cost you enough money to buy and throw away a few dozen citations. I don’t know who would want to get into that business.