C441 Sal

I would find someone to take her for a ride in a P46T. Very good chance she changes her mind when she sees what climbing at 1500 fpm into smooth air in fully protected mostly weather free class A airspace, while in pressurized comfort, climbing faster than the SR22 cruises. I had an SR22 when We bought our Mirage. The family never wanted to get in the SR22 again. Kept it for a while, thinking I would use it on short trips, but was only flying to keep the engine healthy, so let it go.

Planes are only as safe as their pilot at the controls. But a turbine is far less likely to be the weak link in the accident chain. The Cirrus is a fine plane, but the capability, comfort and reliability of the turbine is quite a bit more than the Cirrus.

That’s one airplane I don’t understand.

Are they selling in the US, or just Europe?

That’s one airplane I don’t understand.

Are they selling in the US, or just Europe?

Add CJ4 just at $490.

"Under $500" is an apt description, only the smallest engines are meaningfully far away from that number. The rate of rise is particularly alarming, 5 X inflation. It doesn't take long at that rate to reach some huge numbers.


Apparently none of them post on CJP where there are some angry folks today. It also appears your customers don't mind being shafted. If Williams believes your customers are the norm, that they don't care about the engine program cost, that is even more incentive for them to jack the prices.

Mike C.

Sal, I know you ideally said you didn't want a piston, but a really tricked out Aerostar will not only beat a KA90 in speed, it will offer all the comforts of a turbine at a piston price. I can honestly say I should have never sold my 601P and just kept it. But I also got bitten by the turbine bug.

Now, if you gotta go turbine, how about a Turbo Commander? Nice and roomy, speedy and not too bad on the wallet. I would say MU-2, but the reality is they're bit range challenged compared to a TC. A long wing Jetrop Turbo Commander, will easily duo 1500nm at 300kts with the -10's.

The longwing Jetprops don' have it (models 840, 900, 980 and 1000) as it's a new wing.

The 690/A/B models have an inspection each 36month unless you've upgraded them with new spar strap.

The spar AD requires a reoccurring inspection for corrosion, typically 36 months, but can be less. The AD only applies to the Rockwell built Commanders such as the 690A/B, the Gulfstream built airplanes, 840 / 900 / 980 / 1000 (which is what was suggested) does not have the spar issues and are superior aircraft in general.

Awesome aircraft, the only real downside is the unconventional high wing look that lacks ramp presence and the fact that they are noisy on the ground.

The Turbo Commander is truly a pilot’s airplane.

Not as noisy as an MU2, but that's not saying much.

I think the "ramp presence" is fine. The size makes a positive impression and the easy egress with a low door height is a plus, too.

A "big" issue is hangar size. The tall tail and the long wingspan make it not fit in many hangars. I know folks who can't buy one for this reason, or they have to rent a corporate sized hangar to hold it at great cost.

The low wing loading can make turbulence more of an issue. Wing loading and airspeed define the turbulence "comfort" and the Commander at 300 knots and lightly loaded will be bouncy at times.

When I looked at turbine Commanders before buying an MU2, they always seemed to have some sort of corrosion or fatigue issue du jour. The shops that maintained both Commanders and MU2 indicated the Commander would be more expensive to maintain.

Here is the SB index to get a feel for those issues:

https://twincommander.com/wp-content/up ... OV2021.pdf

There have been more in flight break ups than one would like.

The win for the Commander is docile engine out handling. The big wing helps here.

The turbine Commander is among the TPE331 powered 300 knot class which includes MU2, Cessna 441 as well.

Of that group, I'd buy the 441 if they are all equal priced. It is the longest range of the bunch and likely the fastest once -10 converted (almost all 441s are now).

If I have to downgrade from the Citation, the 441 would be my first choice.

Mike C.

Ok, so 441 versus Cheyenne 400? which one comes out on top?

Well one of those holds a lot of world records :-)

For the most expensive TPE331 engines ever made...

The big block TPE331-14 engines are not for the faint of heart, not nearly as economical to own as the smaller TPE331 engines are.

The original Dowty props are pricey as well, but perhaps the MT STC has made that bearable.

In the "high flight level turboprop" class, the Piaggio is the top choice as is faster than the 400LS.

Mike C.

At least they figured out what was happening to the Commanders.

I'll defer to Bruce B. he's stayed in the Commander world, I enjoyed my years with them, but it's been a long time since I was in that world, but I believe there were two or three in-flight break-ups, these were all Rockwell Commanders and all -10 conversions, they discovered that the composite cap on those big tails were eroding on the leading edge, it didn't happen on the -5 airplanes, so the theory was the extra speed created the problem. The leading edge of the cap would erode, a hole would form and ram air would explode the tail.

As far as I know, those were the only ones, once the caps were replaced it never happened again.

Please elaborate or correct as necessary Bruce!

(fun fact, the first airplane deal I was ever involved in was a Turbo Commander and Bruce represented the buyer, I believe that was 1997)

Reference? Never heard of this one, and I don't see any ADs that address the tail.

I don't understand this. I have run -10 441, -42 200 and -61 B200. Would much, much rather have -61 B200. Bigger cabin, more comfort same speed.

Yes, fuel burn is much more with B200 and one can argue various nits on the engines both way.

My $0.02 is you can only submit based on experience. I have 441 and 200/B200 experience. I don't have Twin Commander or Citation experience, so I remain mute on those.

The market seems to have spoke loudly over the years with the 200/B200/B250/B260/300. The B300 is a different animal.

The 200 series is the Suburban of the skies. Popular, MX everywhere, experienced pilots everywhere, parts pretty easy to come by (we just did a windshield and had one in 2 days where others wait), highly, highly modified by aftermarket.

Why do people who haven't spent serious time in them bash them so??