How do you avoid the shop that you said you'd avoid (two accidents on one plane) when there's no way to know which shop that is?

OEM service centers tend to be inefficient. Why? I'm not completely sure other than to say it's the nature of the beast. They tend to be bloated, overstaffed, and slow. I've used Textron Service Centers a few times for some very specific things, and it's always a struggle. They just think differently. I regularly use an independent shop for my scheduled maintenance that is a former Textron Authorized Citation Service Center. Their mechanics are very knowledgeable and do nice work. They don't have the extra layer upon layer of staff, and their out-the-door prices are half of the OEM service center. Different strokes for different folks, but for many of us, we've successfully found sound alternatives to OEM service.

I've seen similar. There's a wide range of prices.

Two years ago, Skyway quoted $17K, Textron quoted $45K. Almost 3 to 1 ratio for phase 5. Very wide range.

Saying shops should charge about the same is saying a car should cost about the same from Chevy or Mercedes. They don't.


I'll have to keep that in mind.


For my plane, the default phase 1-4 is 300 hours or 24 months, phase 5 is 1200 hours or 36 months. I think you are the same.

With my LUMP program from Textron, phase 1-4 is every 450 hours, 3 years, phase 5 is 1200 hours, 6 years.

That is a fantastic inspection schedule, phase 1-4 is not that big a deal, so phase 1-5 every 6 years is wonderful. Maybe a small shop takes 4 weeks to do that, but I do it so rarely that my down time is minimal.


Not for me, I'm every 3 years on this schedule:

3 years: phase 1-4
6 years: phase 1-5

2 inspections every 6 years.

You should be at least this:

2 years: phase 1-4
3 years: phase 5
4 years: phase 1-4
6 years: phase 1-5

So you should get 4 inspections in 6 years, average 18 month intervals.

Textron said the LUMP is not available for FJ44 conversions, but I heard someone say they got it on their converted airplane, so maybe you should contact Textron to see if you can get your plane on a LUMP.

Mike C.

How do you avoid the shop that you said you'd avoid (two accidents on one plane) when there's no way to know which shop that is?

West Star quoted us about double what we ended up paying for paint. Our paint had some imperfections ("dust nibs") that I understand are common. Maybe those would not be there at West Star, but I think the simply charge their jet customers that amount because they pay it. The difference between our paint and a magical perfect paint job is worth maybe $6,000 to me, not $60,000.

The FAA has rules for jets that do not apply to single engine pistons, the primary reason being they can afford it. Maintenance shops are probably of the same mentality.

One of the issues at the factory service center is that they consider themselves an authority on the airplane and thus don't give the owner the ability to make decisions.

A common story is some issue is found, there are potentially multiple ways to fix it, but the service center will only allow a particular solution. If I say no, they say "we won't sign it off that way".

For example, an engine over TBO. I wouldn't dare bring that to a Textron service center as they will probably say they can't sign it off. The maintenance manual says to overhaul the engine, but overhaul requirements in maintenance manuals are not binding on part 91.

For another example, you are using out of date maintenance manual. This is legal per the FAA, the one you selected in the records and you don't have to keep it up to date. Remember the 441 SID fiasco? Some owners kept on using rev 15 manuals, but Textron wouldn't sign those off when SIDs were put in rev 16.

Sometimes they fix things without owner involvement, they are making the decisions, which is wrong.

By rule, the owner/operator is responsible for the maintenance of the aircraft, not the shop. With that responsibility comes the authority to make the decisions. Factory service centers don't see it that way.

A BT thread on shops making owner level decisions:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=171045&p=2454388#p2454388

Mike C.

You ask other owners on forums like this one and CJP.

A shop which has chronic issues with mistakes, bad work, excessive costs will be found out.

Similarly, the shops that do exceptional work or go above and beyond get mentioned as well.

The good small shops do not advertise, they get all the business they can handle by word of mouth.

Mike C.

During a pre-buy survey (can we abandon the term inspection? It’s not an inspection, inspections have logbook entires and sign offs) the buyer doesn’t own the plane, the risk of the airplane being damaged by the shop is entirely on the seller

If it’s a phase inspection, it’s still the sellers plane, and a pulley from the ceiling through the wing is the sellers problem

During a pre-buy survey (can we abandon the term inspection? It’s not an inspection, inspections have logbook entires and sign offs) the buyer doesn’t own the plane, the risk of the airplane being damaged by the shop is entirely on the seller

If it’s a phase inspection, it’s still the sellers plane, and a pulley from the ceiling through the wing is the sellers problem

If the big shop with the big insurance is negligent and damages the plane in the ways described earlier? Thats the sellers problem

Small shop small insurance damages it? Sellers problem!

The size of the shop and insurance involved doesn’t benefit the buyer in my eyes, it’s not his airplane yet

What am I missing?

The more expensive the shop is that Chip recommends, the less it blows back in his face if they do something wrong. He is basically transferring reputational risk to them by having the client spend more money on the prebuy.

Mike C.

During a pre-buy survey (can we abandon the term inspection? It’s not an inspection, inspections have logbook entires and sign offs) the buyer doesn’t own the plane, the risk of the airplane being damaged by the shop is entirely on the seller

If it’s a phase inspection, it’s still the sellers plane, and a pulley from the ceiling through the wing is the sellers problem

If the big shop with the big insurance is negligent and damages the plane in the ways described earlier? Thats the sellers problem
The
Small shop small insurance damages it? Sellers problem!

The size of the shop and insurance involved doesn’t benefit the buyer in my eyes, it’s not his airplane yet

What am I missing?

One, you presume this is true but I highly doubt it it. Can you name a shop without insurance or is this a bogeyman you made up to spread FUD?

Two, you presume the independent shop will be more likely to break an aircraft. No evidence has been presented substantiating that. We do have evidence a big shop damaged a Hawker 850XP twice. I know of other big shop mistakes as well.


If the seller agreed to the shop, which is implied since they brought the airplane, the buyer has no liability.

Mike C.

Wouldn't it be part of do diligence to ask for the shop's insurance police and limits?

Heck I haul equipment for a living and every load I book I have to send my COI with my limits to the customer. And if the equipment I haul is over my insured limits I get a rider to cover the amount.