I like you chip but I spend my own money on these hots and am ATP type rated and fly every single airplane post engine work and know every single part number going into the engines by memory. I know a good engine from bad and have had great experiences doing what I’m doing. All shops are using the same repair providers not really sure why the name of the shop matters in reassembly.

For clarification, what type of aircraft?

A 501? A 550?

Who cares who did the overhauls.

A Citation V like Mike’s, an Ultra… needs to be DOF overhauls.

Michael,

That is not true. Resale value is absolutely effected if you do not use a DOFF shop to do overhauls.

I own a 560 also (actually on program) but I’ve had great luck with ITI and hit or miss luck with Hale on engine work and amazing luck with my hot section guy. I also have a plethora of log book evidence showing Pratt and vector/standard and Dallas don’t have any better luck guaranteeing their overhauls perform or last any longer than anyone’s else’s. That’s a myth. I’ve personally owned 50 plus legacy Citations. I invest wisely in engine work because it’s my own money and I fly what I invest in.

For every story like that, we can find one that is a Pratt or Dallas overhaul. Most of the time, it is a part that gave out, not the labor to put them in.

It is all perceived value, which means there will be buyers who pay more for it. I'm not one of those, and neither will be the guy who buys my airplane 10 to 15 years from now. At that time, Pratt overhauls with FSC maintenance will be worth very little on a 40 year old airframe. All I want is a plane that works, not one which has wasted money spent on virtual value.

Mike C.

No it doesn't.

When I reach TBO, it gets a HSI and keeps flying. No overhaul.

I guarantee that if I do a DOF overhaul, I will not get my money back on sale. There just isn't any room for such a change in valuation. By the time I sell in 10-15 years, a pair of DOF overhauls will be $1.5M. The entire plane won't be worth that with fresh engines.

Mike C.

No it doesn't.

When I reach TBO, it gets a HSI and keeps flying. No overhaul.

I guarantee that if I do a DOF overhaul, I will not get my money back on sale. There just isn't any room for such a change in valuation. By the time I sell in 10-15 years, a pair of DOF overhauls will be $1.5M. The entire plane won't be worth that with fresh engines.

Mike C.

You said DOFF. I understand DOF. No one gives a crap who overhauled or did the hot section on legacy (all of them) citations. It passes a Boroscope, it makes performance numbers. That’s it .

You say a lot of things, without any evidence, that contradict my research.

I spoke with a lot of overhaul shops and they don't agree with you, either.

Until you start to provide hard specifics, I don't find your guidance very credible.

Mike C.

Looks like showtime

viewtopic.php?p=2973350#p2973350

Haven't been paying close attention but i'm not getting the not much diff here. It seems to me that the way Williams operates alone speaks volumes about major diffs.

You say a lot of things, without any evidence, that contradict my research.

I spoke with a lot of overhaul shops and they don't agree with you, either.

Until you start to provide hard specifics, I don't find your guidance very credible.

Mike C.

Ohh, sorry. Fat thumbs!

You are correct if you’re referring to 501’s and Citation II’s, obviously with Bravo, Encore and above it’s only Pratt and Standard (Dallas) that can do them.

The Citation V and Ultra are the ones on the bubble. I think it is solid advice to do DOF overhauls on anything nice, with first or second run engines.

The problem with overhauls is that anyone can quote anything they want.

Just so anyone reading this knows, one major difference between a DOF and a regular shop is the parts they are allowed to use. The Designated Overhaul Facility will only install Pratt components. This is why it effects resale. If I buy an airplane with StandardAero motors, I know what went into the engines. If its NBF engines, I have to have an engine guy go over the workorders and see exactly what was installed. PMA parts, components that might not have cycles to make the next overhaul, etc.

There are basically no Citation Vs with first run engines any more and precious few with second run.

Ultra would have more.

By the time I would sell, 10 to 15 years from now, they won't be on the bubble. You can't plan based on today's situation, but on the future.


This is an important distinction and where MAJOR savings can occur just from "policy".

My impellers are 3030939, list price $347,000 each. These are the 12,000 cycle impellers versus the 9,000 cycle ones the engines originally came with.

If I bought a lower time airplane, say 6,000 hours, I would still have the original impellers and at ~7,000 hours, when due for second overhaul, the 2,000 cycles left are not enough to make the TBO cycle, so new impellers would be needed at a total outlay of about $700,000 EXTRA at overhaul. The fact that I bought a plane with HIGHER time meant I had BETTER engine parts! Counter intuitive, no? Now I have ~9,500 cycles left on those expensive impellers.

I was looking at an airplane where, at engine overhaul time, the impellers would have about 3600 cycles left. Both Pratt and Dallas said no go, they require 4,000 cycles left on the impellers before they would reuse them in an overhaul, company policy. They also would not let me find used impellers on the open market. So I would be spending $700,000 extra to throw away 3,600 cycle life remaining impellers if I choose their shop. Meanwhile an independent shop would happily reuse those impellers, still an official Pratt part, and leave me with an engine that had 3600 cycles on them and 0 SMOH. My typical use is a little over 1 hour per cycle, which means I will time out slightly before I cycle out. Perfect!

In just that ONE instance, the policy of the premium shops would have cost me $700,000 more than the independent shops. That ain't no 10%, Chip.

Mike C.

There are basically no Citation Vs with first run engines any more and precious few with second run.

Ultra would have more.

By the time I would sell, 10 to 15 years from now, they won't be on the bubble. You can't plan based on today's situation, but on the future.


This is an important distinction and where MAJOR savings can occur just from "policy".

My impellers are 3030939, list price $347,000 each. These are the 12,000 cycle impellers versus the 9,000 cycle ones the engines originally came with.

If I bought a lower time airplane, say 6,000 hours, I would still have the original impellers and at ~7,000 hours, when due for second overhaul, the 2,000 cycles left are not enough to make the TBO cycle, so new impellers would be needed at a total outlay of about $700,000 EXTRA at overhaul. The fact that I bought a plane with HIGHER time meant I had BETTER engine parts! Counter intuitive, no? Now I have ~9,500 cycles left on those expensive impellers.

I was looking at an airplane where, at engine overhaul time, the impellers would have about 3600 cycles left. Both Pratt and Dallas said no go, they require 4,000 cycles left on the impellers before they would reuse them in an overhaul, company policy. They also would not let me find used impellers on the open market. So I would be spending $700,000 extra to throw away 3,600 cycle life remaining impellers if I choose their shop. Meanwhile an independent shop would happily reuse those impellers, still an official Pratt part, and leave me with an engine that had 3600 cycles on them and 0 SMOH. My typical use is a little over 1 hour per cycle, which means I will time out slightly before I cycle out. Perfect!

In just that ONE instance, the policy of the premium shops would have cost me $700,000 more than the independent shops. That ain't no 10%, Chip.

Mike C.