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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:12 
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Joined: 06/04/18
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Company: Commander, 79th FS
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Aircraft: F-16, P210 TN550
None, USAF type getting back into GA and learning a whole lot! These forums are invaluable.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:15 
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Joined: 05/03/12
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Location: Wichita, KS
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Username Protected wrote:
I’m seriously considering a P210, it’s the best fit for my mission, but 3 underwriters are now mandating annual training. Along with that, insurance is about 2% of hull value.

What is going on in this industry? It isn’t a citation or 737 Max after all...

Background: commercial, instrument, ASEL, AMEL, 1500 hours, 1300 jet (single pilot), 100 turboprop.


What insurance hoops did you have to jump through to get into a tprop and jet with a basically wet ppl?


I'll put a dollar on military flight training with a later conversion to civilian ratings. Perhaps PPL prior to military.

Everything is negotiable with the insurance broker. It sounds like they didn't say you must attend a named school or training program, just an approved one. So if that is the case, I'd see what's on the market that is convenient to you. If there are none, then it might be that you import a trainer for a day or two and do the work in your plane. Write up your own curriculum and formalize it, and see if that will get approved. Since you've already read all of the accident reports, you're further ahead of the average owner. Tailor the curriculum to address what you learned, and reference it appropriately. I bet you'll be successful.

Last edited on 21 Sep 2019, 10:22, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:18 
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Joined: 06/04/18
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Company: Commander, 79th FS
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Aircraft: F-16, P210 TN550
Yup, that’s me.

Thanks for the advice. One step at a time!

$1 to you sir!

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:21 
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Since you confirmed USAF background, those credentials should bolster your position since you've been operating in a formalized environment. Surely you have some references you can use to model your P210 training after your prior training.

As pointed out earlier, using an oximeter and having an emergency O2 supply immediately available are things that an insurance company would love to see. If you write up your own op specs, equipment requirements, etc perhaps that could help.

Also as mentioned above, 2% hull value might be the lowest cost for pressurized single insurance no matter what you do. So your goal is to minimize the cost of compliance with the training requirement so you don't need to miss a week of work and travel across the country for some program. Perhaps propose a phased timeline to get it reduced in following years.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:30 
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Joined: 06/09/09
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Username Protected wrote:
None, USAF type getting back into GA and learning a whole lot! These forums are invaluable.


Well that makes sense, I had a hard time seeing that quick a move up without having a ton of insurance experience already.

Basically, find your P210 trainer of choice and present their credentials to the broker for approval. Present what you want to do and with whom, or get the CFII to write something up in terms of a training “program”.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 10:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
There was even a thread on BT where a lot of pilots were adamant that there was no need to fly a pattern at anything above 1.3 x Vso.


A link to that thread, please? This, I've got to read.


I'll try to find it. (not sure how to post a link but here it is: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=151634&hilit=Vref&view=unread#unread)

The gist of the thread was "what approach or departure speed to fly in a twin?" I was taught to use blue-line until established inbound or outbound below maneuvering altitude. Others though that as long as you stay above 1.3 Vso you were safe. This habit does not account for banking and maneuvering.

The Flight-Chops video refers to Commercial Operations Specs that require (not recommend) a Minimum Maneuvering Speed (MMS) well above stall speeds. It amounts to the same thing...prevention instead of skill.
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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 14:19 
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Joined: 05/31/13
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What's the big deal with annual training? It's my favorite time of the year. I get to fly and talk airplanes for 2 days with other like minded pilots, plus it makes me safer. What's not to like besides the cost?

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2019, 17:36 
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Joined: 02/11/09
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone have a good reference to an Insurance approved P210 school or CFI? I’ve heard Chuck Mcgill is the best but he’s in San Diego. I’m in Rhode Island but Phoenix works too.


Potentially I may be able to help, or I may not. I'm in Tucson and have some P210 time and am currently on a P210 policy. If the underwriter will approve me, I'm happy to see if my schedule works with yours.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2019, 00:20 
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Joined: 03/23/08
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Send the broker a reasonable outline of what you would like to do and they will probably get a green light on it. Find a smart 210 pilot, might not have to even be a CFI for you. Include an IPC or something along those lines.

Usually a well presented training program of your own design will be acceptable by at least one or more of them.

Safe to assume anything “P” will need annual training of some sort. A few are ok with 24 month training.
Just how they choose to run their businesses.
Unfortunately large collections of letters in a pilots signature doesn’t track well to better loss ratios so everyone gets learnin assigned.

Tj

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2019, 00:28 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Username Protected wrote:
Unfortunately large collections of letters in a pilots signature doesn’t track well to better loss ratios so everyone gets learnin assigned.

Tj


Hmmm...disappointing.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2019, 08:26 
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Joined: 06/04/18
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Company: Commander, 79th FS
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Aircraft: F-16, P210 TN550
Username Protected wrote:
Send the broker a reasonable outline of what you would like to do and they will probably get a green light on it. Find a smart 210 pilot, might not have to even be a CFI for you. Include an IPC or something along those lines.

Usually a well presented training program of your own design will be acceptable by at least one or more of them.

Safe to assume anything “P” will need annual training of some sort. A few are ok with 24 month training.
Just how they choose to run their businesses.
Unfortunately large collections of letters in a pilots signature doesn’t track well to better loss ratios so everyone gets learnin assigned.

Tj


Thanks Tj, I’ll look into something like this!

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2019, 09:17 
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Joined: 03/23/08
Posts: 7357
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Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx.
Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
Username Protected wrote:
Unfortunately large collections of letters in a pilots signature doesn’t track well to better loss ratios so everyone gets learnin assigned.

Tj


Hmmm...disappointing.

Which part is disappointing?
The assignment of learning or the nature of loss data?
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Tom Johnson-Az/Wy
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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2019, 09:46 
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Joined: 04/29/13
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Username Protected wrote:
in the fine print, they should have included a requirement for High Altitude endorsement


??? High altitude endorsement is only required in a twin with a certified ceiling of 25,000' or higher. The P210 is only certified to 23,000' and obviously a single. It would not be possible to do a high altitude endorsement in a P210.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2019, 10:24 
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Joined: 11/08/09
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Company: AeroPacific Consulting LLC
Location: Carson City, NV (KCXP)
Aircraft: 1979 Baron 58P
Username Protected wrote:
in the fine print, they should have included a requirement for High Altitude endorsement


??? High altitude endorsement is only required in a twin with a certified ceiling of 25,000' or higher. The P210 is only certified to 23,000' and obviously a single. It would not be possible to do a high altitude endorsement in a P210.

Vince


Ref 14 CFR 61.31(g):
High altitude training required for any pressurized aircraft (single or twin) if max certified ceiling is ABOVE FL250 (i.e. not required if max service ceiling is FL250).

Doug

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2019, 11:22 
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Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 145
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Location: Carson City, NV
Aircraft: 1981 P210N
Hi Lawson,
Bob Bennett at Great Basin Aviation is Reno is the guy you need. He has many hours in 210's and many other types. He is the best CFII I have ever had and knows the T/P210 systems inside and out. I was required to only get a CFI sign-off when I purchased my P210, but had several hundred hours in a TR182. Maybe that was the difference. An annual IPC is still required, but I don't mind that a bit.
David

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