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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Textron has a large area there, with a couple King Airs, a couple jets, 172, a Baron, and a Bonanza.

I walked through their area, pausing and looking at each plane; nobody paid any attention to me.....at all. Several Textron people were talking to each other.

It’s sad.


Arlen, I felt the same way.
I would fire the whole lot of them who were working the booth.
I was there at 8:58. By their store, looking to buy some logo merchandise. It was roped off. “She is not here yet. Can you come back at 10:00 or so” no, I can not.

...


The people on Mooney Space are bemoaning about the Mooney booth for pretty much the same reasons. Which is worse, as Beech has the JetA planes that are selling, but Mooney only has the piston planes.
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:18 
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Joined: 11/03/08
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Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
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Username Protected wrote:
I apologize if this sounds arrogant,
but... I'm a retired machinist.
It's all I ever did for a living.

I look at things a little differently when it comes to engineering and build quality than others.

It goes far beyond judging something from sitting in it.

those days are long gone and the people who built in beechcraft quality are long dead

Check out a recent build G36 and look at how the doors (don't) fit. Crawl up in the wheel wells and look around with a mirror. Check the rivet heads that aren't easy to see.

Cirrus aces new Beech pistons in any quality metric you can think of.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:31 
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No doubt early Cirrus were poor workmanship. But today?
Might as well compare an aluminum boat with rivets to a fiberglass one. No comparison. No doubt old metal workers were put out of business. Adapt or die.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:34 
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Joined: 05/08/09
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Location: Stuart, FL (KSUA)
Aircraft: 1967 Bonanza V35
Beech rivet lines USED to be laser straight.

I was appalled at what I saw on the G36 fuselage at SnF last April. Any EAA homebuilder would be ashamed to have anything like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
The people on Mooney Space are bemoaning about the Mooney booth for pretty much the same reasons. Which is worse, as Beech has the JetA planes that are selling, but Mooney only has the piston planes.
Mooney has been on life support for over a decade. Owners are lucky the Chinese investors are bad at math.

They've made a few improvements (second door), but it's essentially the same long body design for the last 25 years. The new models they tried to launch are nowhere to be found. Pockets aren't deep enough to develop a SETP.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
Beech rivet lines USED to be laser straight.

I was appalled at what I saw on the G36 fuselage at SnF last April. Any EAA homebuilder would be ashamed to have anything like that.


Wow, surprised to hear that.
You'd think in today's CNC world the build quality would spot on.
Humph...


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
Beech rivet lines USED to be laser straight.

I was appalled at what I saw on the G36 fuselage at SnF last April. Any EAA homebuilder would be ashamed to have anything like that.


Wow, surprised to hear that.
You'd think in today's CNC world the build quality would spot on.
Humph...

I'm sure they are using the same tooling they've had for decades. You don't spend a lot on tooling to make 20 airplanes a year.

Not that you need CNC equipment to do a quality job. You just have to care about the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 11:48 
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A Canadian Medevac company purchased many KA 250’s a couple years ago.
The wings looked like they were hail damaged.
Beech had those wings built in Mexico.
Arnie may be a machinist, but accountant CEO CFO’s of GA companies have to pay for their extravagant lifestyles somehow.

Murray


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 12:01 
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Username Protected wrote:

The people on Mooney Space are bemoaning about the Mooney booth for pretty much the same reasons. Which is worse, as Beech has the JetA planes that are selling, but Mooney only has the piston planes.


True... I didn't make OSH last year but read bad reports of the fence and lack of ability to just wander in and look around. This year there was no fence, but a nice trailer and perhaps that was a bit off-limits. I think the staff did a good job engaging folks from the few times I was around/observing.

To Mooney's credit, though, they sent out invites to current owners for a BBQ lunch on Tuesday that was quite enjoyable! Perhaps they're catching on that those of us with old Mooneys are great ambassadors that can be leveraged for sales, even if only one or two might be able to buy new. I know I can extol the virtues of a Mooney at any airport and perhaps catch the ear of a new pilot (or student) that doesn't know why they're such a great plane and perhaps was figuring to buy a Cirrus by default...but the fact remains that Mooney is painted in to a corner in terms of product development right now. I personally think the M10 was a great concept, but very poorly executed and it probably left a very bad taste in the rookie owner's mouth about investing in GA. I don't know what they'll do next, frankly. The fact that the brand has survived this long is a strong testament to the plane, despite the tumultuous business history.

I did witness one very grumpy guy cuss Mooney booth folks for not letting him use their employee bathroom in the trailer, though. Not sure why he expected he could use their can! Did anyone get to use a Textron bathroom by chance? :P


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 12:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
I did witness one very grumpy guy cuss Mooney booth folks for not letting him use their employee bathroom in the trailer, though.
That's a ridiculous gripe. The B hangar was right there, with real toilets.

I didn't get a "go away" vibe from Mooney this year. Their cabin interiors are as good as I've ever seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 12:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
I struggled getting attention at some of these booths as well. Unfortunately the number of qualified buyers is SLIM...The sales guys know a very small percentage of people are capable of purchasing a new aircraft so they profile. A 30 something guy with kids isn’t going to get attention unless you push for it. Maybe in my 40s that will change.
A 60 year old guy in a cowboy hat and boots that looks like oil money will.
It is frustrating!

Profiling is a huge mistake in professional sales. I’m sure these “sales reps” have no training which is unforgivable when you’re trying to sell a $1,000,000 airplane much less anything else. It might be that one half of one percent of the folks the salesman might meet are financially capable and actually interested but it doesn’t take long for a pro to determine that after a few key questions once the prospect has been greeted. That’s the art and it takes the right personality with training to find the diamond in the rough. Do things correctly and you’ve got a shot at selling a new plane.


Mooney sales folks, most independents, were working the floor hard every time I passed. Textron and Beech are a "shrug the shoulders". Cirrus were busy but nice and helpful.

I've always liked to go shopping for new cars in shorts and golf shirt, after golf, all sweaty and scruffy on Saturday afternoon. That's when the Sven's of the car business shine. Guys that look me up and down and misjudge my intention have missed sales galore the Sven's have sold me multiple Avalanche's, Mercedes, Lincolns, Lexus etc. over the years.

Pro's some young some older but all able to pick out the buyer/customer who might be dirty, wearing bib overalls and has enough money to buy the Whole dealership if he wanted. Those are the kind needed in any sales business. The kind that can help you become a plane owner too. :woot:
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41 
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Username Protected wrote:
While I've never even sat in a Cirrus, I have no desire to.
There's just something about it that rubs me the wrong way.


Cirrus owners must wave?

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 12:43 
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Joined: 05/11/10
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Username Protected wrote:
Beech rivet lines USED to be laser straight.

They weren't on my 1970 V35B. And a lot of the shop heads were pretty bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 12:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
I didn't get a "go away" vibe from Mooney this year. Their cabin interiors are as good as I've ever seen.


I didn't get a "go away" vibe either, but I wandered in at about 1:00 on Monday and closely examined every airplane in their display.
No one with a Mooney shirt on bothered to say "hi".
I walked right past a few of them.
It's really not that hard to do.
Maybe it was bad timing, and they had gotten warmed up by the time Chuck passed by.
Or I had the wrong kind of overalls on.

Regardless, it makes no sense to buy something that they don't seem determined to sell.
Even if you can't get excited about the looks of a Cirrus, your investment in a new airplane is going further with Cirrus into improving the future of GA rather than going into a company that doesn't seem interested in taking competition seriously.

From the data in the earlier link Mooney sold 7 Ovations, and 7 Acclaims in 2018.

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Last edited on 29 Jul 2019, 16:32, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus vs Beech at Oshkosh.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2019, 15:26 
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Is GA dying?
Were experimental sales or experimental component sales on the uptick?


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