Just wondering what people’s thoughts are on partial missing log books. Looking at an airplane that the logs are missing for the first 18 years of its life. Aircraft was exported to Sweden for those years. Was then sold and imported back to the US in 2000. Log books from that date to current date are in tact and in good order.

My question is what is the general consensus on how much would it de-value the aircraft The aircraft has been maintained and engine overhauled (80 hrs SMOH)
during this current log records I understand the first 18 years of its life is unknown but the last 18 years the aircraft has proper records and documents. If you were buying this aircraft how much of a concern would this make on your decision to buy

25-30% deduction, but that can depend on the airplane also.

Based on the math, it’s a 1982 model? Just for arguments sake, if it were a 50 year old plane, the first 18 years would mean less to me. A 1982 model means the logs are missing for half its life.

How much would this plane go for with complete logs? If it’s a $30k airplane to start with, my opinion would be maybe $5k. If the plane is a $150k airframe, maybe $15k. The engine overhaul being in the current logs helps the case though.

If I were the buyer, there would be two mysteries to me:
1) I have no clue about foreign maintenance regulations so missing logs make my knowledge gap even more unknown.
2) If I fly the airplane and it doesn’t fly straight or has some handling quirks, I would want to know if there was any airframe damage and see evidence of the repairs.

Just my thoughts as a theoretical buyer.

We need more information. What type of airplane is a good start.

+1

As an example the current proposed AD on the Piper wings is largely based upon time but also states that any airplanes with missing logs will also require the proposed inspection.

Robert

If you seriously want to better understand the impact of missing log books, have the aircraft professionally appraised. I would recommend reaching out to the Professional Aircraft Appraisal Organization (PAAO) at 888-995-0441 to find the professional that is closest to you.

Flat percentages are incorrect for a number of reasons but my first question is always 25% - 30% of what number??? Why not 20% or 35% or any other percentage???? Why impact avionics and engines (which are included in that flat percentage) for no reason??? Why the difference for a piston twin versus a biz jet versus a piston single???

The market will place a penalty on aircraft with missing logs but the appraiser needs more information than identified here. 18 years of missing logs raises questions about damage history and AFTT which cannot be validated.

Good luck.

As others have said, I believe that the impact on a plane's value is highly variable. Especially for my focus, which has been on vintage airplanes. My older airplane is a 1943 Stearman. The younger one is a 1948 Cessna 195. For planes that old, NDH is rarely a reality. Documentation of repairs or restoration are the important considerations.

The 1948 has all logs back to new. In fact I have the original production test pilot's sign off sheet that approved the Cessna 195 for delivery. I became friends with the now deceased production test pilot, Mort Brown, who was Cessna's chief production test pilot from 1930-something until the mid 70s. He autographed it for me again in 2008 when the 195 type club had its annual fly-in in Wichita celebrating the design's 60th birthday. That unique touch, along with the photograph of him writing the note, might boost the interest of the plane for a collector someday, but it doesn't create any added value that I can attest.

The older plane is a 1943 Stearman. No military logs (I've not seen military logs for any surplus airplane). After being surplussed the plane was modified to be a crop duster and flew in the US until about 1967 when it was exported to Canada. It returned to the US in 1992 but somehow all of the logbooks were lost somewhere in those transitions. I was able to get all Form 337s from FAA's archives for its first and second periods of US civilian ownership, though, so that's somewhat helpful. Its history is completely dark for the years it was in Canada. It's a recent acquisition and I haven't attempted to see if Transport Canada has similar archives but that's probably worth making an effort to do.

It was completely restored in 2002 by a recognized Stearman guy in Minnesota. That effort is well documented including an itemized list of all parts replaced or repaired. The engine was replaced at the same time and has its own logbook from the overhaul prior to being installed on the plane. In my opinion the restoration pretty much moots any questions about what work has been done to the plane so I didn't discount the value of the plane by much at all when I was negotiating the price.

I realize that this is a special case, owing to the different nature of restored vintage airplanes. It would be entirely different if I was talking about a 1990-something plane with no logs. But even for a modern plane, the FAA archives would be helpful in assessing any major repair events. Anyone can order the CDs from FAA (you don't have to be the owner). They're just a few $$ and delivery is a couple of weeks. I'd recommend it. When I ordered them for the 195 I found archived copies of Forms 337 which had been lost from the owner's original records. It's "good to know" information in reconstructing a plane's history, but in actual practice the records need to be kept only for a specified time. For a vintage plane which likely has a number of modifications, the Forms 337 are very valuable to a mechanic in helping to determine the pedigree of the changes. An annual inspection attests to the technical airworthiness of the airplane, i.e., conformance to its type design and subsequent major alterations.

In a market as hot as the one we face right now, it is tempting to buy an airplane with missing logs or damage history. As long as you buy it right so that you can sell it right and have considered all of the other issues... you’re probably ok.

Two things to think about;

If you buy low and sell low did you really save anything?

What happens when the market is slow? If you buy low and can’t sell at any price... will that be a problem.

(as always I come from a turbine prospective, if we are talking a $30k airplane it probably isn’t a big deal)

Excellent point as there are older aircraft wherein lost log books are somewhat expected. As indicated earlier, an appraiser would need more details than being provided in the original post.

The 337 forms, while helpful, are not the total answer. The reason some log books become "lost" is due to a repair that was not documented properly - and this includes NOT filing a 337. Of course, FAA repair stations are not required to file 337s regardless of the repair effort. The point is, there is no "one place" that will answer all your questions which is why field research is critical for aircraft appraisal efforts.

In normal situations (as pointed out earlier), the market places a penalty on aircraft with missing logs due to the inability to validate previous repairs from damage events as well as the AFTT. Individuals who knowingly purchase aircraft with missing logs may not be paying a premium on the front end but they may also find a smaller pool of buyers who are interested in buying the same aircraft in the future. This type of situation will put a downward pressure on the price in order to sell it in a reasonable amount of time.

Good luck

The aircraft is Piper PA28RT-201T. Apprx 7000 TT. 4500 of those hours put on since missing logs

It seems that all paperwork while in the US is there 337’s logs etc and accounted for. It’s just when it was overseas there is no documentation that came back with the aircraft when it was imported back to the US

Walk away.

Between the wing issue and the loss of complex trainer demand, you have a lot of potential downside. Not much money chasing a lot of planes. You don’t want missing logs

Suppose this was a life limited airframe, eg P Baron. How could you prove it's not timed out and it's still airworthy?

Walk.

If this airplane was free I don't think I'd recommend buying it. I'm more concerned with the high time and the wing falling off than the missing logbooks. I'd find something with a little less baggage.