BeechTalk - BT - Citation M2

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Apr 2018, 13:17

Username Protected wrote:

Do the 'slow' cruise speeds of the single pilot jets like the M2 and CJ2 (relative to, say, an Airbus A320) often mean operating at significantly suboptimal cruising altitudes and step climbs because they mess up the flow of the airliner traffic?

In my experience "yes" and the reason I bought a Pilatus over a Phenom 100 (couldn't afford a CJ3 at the time). Between big cities like NYC, ATL, MDW and any where in S. Florida ATC climbs you slow and descends you early. I believe this is also the reason the little jets lose value so quickly.

Some here will say "it's not true" but all you need to do is check FA.
PDK-TEB Phenom 300
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N91 ... /KPDK/KTEB
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PRD ... /KPDK/KTEB

PDK-OPF Gulfstream 4
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FWK ... /KPDK/KOPF

It doesn't need to be a small jet to be kept low. It's more about keeping you away from the "big airports".

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Apr 2018, 13:36

Username Protected wrote:

To be fair, those tracks don’t look too terrible, 5 or so minutes waiting to climb on the departure and 5 to 20 minutes earlier than desired being made to go down, if I’m guesstimating what an ideal profile would resemble?

Me too.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Apr 2018, 15:33

Username Protected wrote:

To be fair, those tracks don’t look too terrible, 5 or so minutes waiting to climb on the departure and 5 to 20 minutes earlier than desired being made to go down, if I’m guesstimating what an ideal profile would resemble?

Descending below 30K' with 30 minutes of flight left "isn't terrible"? Not in a Pilatus it's not. I do the flight at 17.5 VFR.

It's terrible to an M2/HondaJet/Mustang/Phenom 100. Makes the difference between carrying more PAX or more fuel.... or not making it at all when headwinds back from TEB are bad.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Apr 2018, 16:52

Username Protected wrote:

Descending below 30K' with 30 minutes of flight left "isn't terrible"? Not in a Pilatus it's not. I do the flight at 17.5 VFR.

It's terrible to an M2/HondaJet/Mustang/Phenom 100. Makes the difference between carrying more PAX or more fuel.... or not making it at all when headwinds back from TEB are bad.

Seems pretty commonplace. getting below fl300 thirty minutes out seems very common and in keeping with starting out of 410 about 40 minutes from touchdown.

50 minutes happens. 60 I would be feeling hard done by but then remind myself I am flying my own jet.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Apr 2018, 20:00

In my experience "yes" and the reason I bought a Pilatus over a Phenom 100 (couldn't afford a CJ3 at the time). Between big cities like NYC, ATL, MDW and any where in S. Florida ATC climbs you slow and descends you early. I believe this is also the reason the little jets lose value so quickly.

Some here will say "it's not true" but all you need to do is check FA.
PDK-TEB Phenom 300
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N91 ... /KPDK/KTEB
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PRD ... /KPDK/KTEB

PDK-OPF Gulfstream 4
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FWK ... /KPDK/KOPF

It doesn't need to be a small jet to be kept low. It's more about keeping you away from the "big airports".[/quote]

To be fair, those tracks don’t look too terrible, 5 or so minutes waiting to climb on the departure and 5 to 20 minutes earlier than desired being made to go down, if I’m guesstimating what an ideal profile would resemble?[/quote]

______________________________________________________________________

"....guesstimating what an ideal profile would resemble"

An ideal descent profile for a jet is to close the throttles at cruise altitude, and spool up somewhere around the final approach fix.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Apr 2018, 20:06

Username Protected wrote:

To be fair, those tracks don’t look too terrible, 5 or so minutes waiting to climb on the departure and 5 to 20 minutes earlier than desired being made to go down, if I’m guesstimating what an ideal profile would resemble?

Me too.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Apr 2018, 20:53

I don't find the early descents to be overly penalizing on fuel if you can avoid extended level-offs. When I fly into Southern California, I typically get started down 5-10 minutes early. I'll start with a 1,000fpm descent, and that usually works for ATC. Rarely am I asked to increase rate. After descending 1,000fpm for several minutes, I'll catch up with my descent profile and reduce power and increase descent rate from there, which saves fuel. The ideal descent profile is what Paul said. Flight idle at cruise altitude and descend like the Space Shuttle. That's how you make fuel.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 May 2018, 01:06

Username Protected wrote:

Descending below 30K' with 30 minutes of flight left "isn't terrible"?

That's an average descent rate of 1000 FPM.

No, that isn't terrible given Atlanta is the world's busiest airport and the NYC area is the largest metro area in the US.

People who live in NYC and Atlanta are used to not moving around efficiently. If they want to fly jets efficiently, they should fly elsewhere.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 May 2018, 05:58

Had a look at this airliner profile for a Nice - London Heathrow flight and it looks similar profile to Jason’s posting for ATL to Teterboro flights. I’ve flown similar (Cannes - smaller London area airports) and been a frequent passenger on this commute and I think this looks like a pretty common profile. I’m no expert in these things, but I do wonder if, into and out of highly congested airspaces is anyone (including airliners) getting that throttles to idle slam dunk descent profile which is “ideal”?
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW341/history/20180501/0545Z/LFMN/EGLL/tracklog
We don’t have 17500 feet VFR as an option in Europe... I can see the value of it as an alternative means of getting through these busy areas.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 May 2018, 10:10

Username Protected wrote:

People who live in NYC and Atlanta are used to not moving around efficiently. If they want to fly jets efficiently, they should fly elsewhere.

Mike C.

My point exactly.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 May 2018, 10:17

Username Protected wrote:

Had a look at this airliner profile for a Nice - London Heathrow flight and it looks similar profile to Jason’s posting for ATL to Teterboro flights. I’ve flown similar (Cannes - smaller London area airports) and been a frequent passenger on this commute and I think this looks like a pretty common profile. I’m no expert in these things, but I do wonder if, into and out of highly congested airspaces is anyone (including airliners) getting that throttles to idle slam dunk descent profile which is “ideal”?
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW341/history/20180501/0545Z/LFMN/EGLL/tracklog
We don’t have 17500 feet VFR as an option in Europe... I can see the value of it as an alternative means of getting through these busy areas.

Early descent is only an issue if you're flying a jet that's already "range limited". If you're counting on ATC cooperation to meet your fuel requirements, prepare to be disappointed. 737's aren't part of my analysis.

The line for "the long runway" was 40 minutes the other day. A line of jets waiting for IFR release with engines running. I took the short runway VFR.

Yesterday I shaved 25 minutes off my usual Miami-Atlanta flight by doing the whole thing VFR at 16,500. Amazing how much faster I get around when I take ATC out of the equation.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 May 2018, 10:37

Username Protected wrote:

Had a look at this airliner profile for a Nice - London Heathrow flight and it looks similar profile to Jason’s posting for ATL to Teterboro flights. I’ve flown similar (Cannes - smaller London area airports) and been a frequent passenger on this commute and I think this looks like a pretty common profile. I’m no expert in these things, but I do wonder if, into and out of highly congested airspaces is anyone (including airliners) getting that throttles to idle slam dunk descent profile which is “ideal”?
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW341/history/20180501/0545Z/LFMN/EGLL/tracklog
We don’t have 17500 feet VFR as an option in Europe... I can see the value of it as an alternative means of getting through these busy areas.

Early descent is only an issue if you're flying a jet that's already "range limited". If you're counting on ATC cooperation to meet your fuel requirements, prepare to be disappointed. 737's aren't part of my analysis.

The line for "the long runway" was 40 minutes the other day. A line of jets waiting for IFR release with engines running. I took the short runway VFR.

Yesterday I shaved 25 minutes off my usual Miami-Atlanta flight by doing the whole thing VFR at 16,500. Amazing how much faster I get around when I take ATC out of the equation.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 May 2018, 10:39

Username Protected wrote:

flying VFR is a lot more efficient, faster, less stressful and you end up using about the same fuel than trying to go IFR. Waiting in line for an IFR release and being routed all over the place is sometimes not only a PITA, but more time consuming and you end up burning the same fuel than staying below 18K and flying straight to where you want to go. The 525 can do this well.

You're so selfish. You should "get in line" with everyone else. :D

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 May 2018, 11:10

Username Protected wrote:

flying VFR is a lot more efficient, faster, less stressful and you end up using about the same fuel than trying to go IFR. Waiting in line for an IFR release and being routed all over the place is sometimes not only a PITA, but more time consuming and you end up burning the same fuel than staying below 18K and flying straight to where you want to go. The 525 can do this well.

You're so selfish. You should "get in line" with everyone else. :D

Username Protected · **Posted:** 01 May 2018, 11:18

I like "selfish people". Am I the only one?

Citation M2 - good entry level jet?