Hello friends,
I've been happily flying my 73 A36 for the past few years. I'm a 500 hour instrument pilot and I'm almost done with my commercial certificate. I plan on getting my multi rating to follow. This week my wife and I welcomed our fourth child. (yes, we're done now). So while we all fit in the A36 at the current time, we have little room for baggage or growth. We do have the extended baggage mod and it has a nice useful load of around 1350lbs. I'm not a big guy, 150lbs and neither is my wife, 110lbs, and our kids are 8yrs, 5yrs, 3yrs, and newborn. We typically fly along the east coast. Typical trip is 200 nautical miles, but we go to florida a few times a year, 700 nautical miles. What are my options after the A36? I'd love an Epic LT or TBM700 but i don't have 7 figures to spend. Budget will be under 500k at this point. I've been mulling over larger piston twins, Cessna 421, Piper Navajo (slow though), Twin Commanders, etc... Some twin turboprops are in reach, but I'm afraid operating costs would be much higher than the piston twins, so prob not a realistic option. Pressurization is a plus. FIKI needed. 7th seat and potty also a plus.
Just love to hear your suggestions! Thanks

58 or 58P Baron will be the smallest price increment and the nose baggage is really meaningful for family crap.

421C is perhaps the ultimate family piston transport. No headsets, noticeably faster than your A36, potty (so more non-stops!), and pressurization for comfort.

But, a lot more money and a lot more time (on overseeing maintenance) than your A36.

You can also Fedex.a lot of Christmas presents and stash car seats and pack-n-plays on both ends for short money compared to changing rides. Then, when the youngest is 6 or so, you might be forced to upgrade. Delaying 4-6 years is worth something.

The cost difference and hassle difference from a good sorted-out A36 to any P-twin is eye-opening. I could care less about the gas cost. It's just more "fun" and easy to fly the A36, so I'd lean that way for as long as it works.

Only repeating what has been said here many times before... Buy your last plane first..

Pilatus or Citation X

Your kids can pay they're own way through college.

You can thank me with a celebratory flight to the Bahamas in either one.

Peace,
Don

421C if you want to stay piston, KA90 if you want to go turbine.

Just as a reality check, budget $100k/year for a plane in this category. May be less depending on hours flown, but between hangar, insurance, training, fuel, and maintenance (this being the big variable) you'll be between $70-$120k a year for 100 hours/year.

Robert

Jim's keep the 36 advice is reasonable. A lot of people figure out that 12-year olds get less interested in family travel and/or busy with their own social/ballet/travel soccer/whatever schedule.

If you're going to step up, the 58 would be a very obvious fit and an easy transition. If you want room/potty consider a chieftain or navajo.

And yes the 421 is the ultimate family traveling machine

It's probably a (too?) big jump in cost/pilot/ownership complexity. Might be a good fit for the next step up in 4-5 years.

Amen, except get a Conquest 2 if you go turbine. The KA90 doesn't add much more than the 421C provides except better engine reliability.

Guy, I think you have to go twin to fulfill your future mission and have some place to grow.

And if you're looking at cabin class twins, then you're going to be operating them close to what a turbine twin costs to operate. There is no real difference between the cost of running a 421 and a MU-2/Turbo Commander/B100 with the Garretts. Old PT6's are slower, cost more, burn more.

A smaller twin like an Aerostar or a P58 is probably a little cheaper, if you can handle the smaller cabins.

I've been fighting this for a long time. The next step up from an A36 is a big one. You mentioned the usual suspects, also I have included the Cessna 340. In the end, I wait till a Pilatus or Mustang is possible. If not, I like my A36...........subject to change on next issue of trade a plane

The cheapest way to move that crowd comfortably is a Twin Bonanza - but not pressurized and no potty. No problem for 200 nm, 700 hundred nm the speed delta between a Tbone and some of these others becomes more significant.

B100 is cheaper than an A100 but is slower than an mu2/690, less suited to good turbine altitudes and has the more onerous KA inspection plan. I would not lump all the garret planes together.

As for any leap from an A36 is a huge one, I disagree. The b58 offers meaningfully more cargo space for 6 seat operations. It would replace the a36 capabilities perfectly.

200NM, occasionally 700, you aren't going very far very often. And you are sub-american in people weight, presumably your kids will be small in stature as well. The A36 sounds like the ideal plane to me. Anything bigger is far over the line of diminishing returns per $$.

I have been mulling this exact scenario over for myself for the better part of 18 months. 4 kids same basic ages as yours and I currently am cramped in the Baron.

Here is what I have found:

MU2
The good-
Low capital cost
Cheapest turbine to maintain / no major AD's or recurring inspections (gear/spar) 100,200, 600 inspections.
Great support
Awesome performance
The bad-
Short Body - small cabin for Twin Turbine (7 max)
Insurance is higher
Recurring mandatory training
Loud
Reputation (undeserved)

Turbo Commander
The Good-
Fast
Roomy
Easy to fly
Big wing
Quiet Cabin
Reasonable Acquisition costs
The bad-
Many AD's and SB's related to corrosion
Spar AD
Gear inspection
Heavy maintenance costs due to required inspections

421
The Good-
Awesome Cabin
Easy to fly
Cheap to buy and insure
Roomy
The bad-
Slow (200-210kts)
Piston
Will require TOH

King Air anything
Economics are another step up from what i have found from any of these others
There are $7M King Airs that look a lot like $700k King Airs and the airports and mechanics don't differentiate when they write up your bill
King Air money is too close to Jet money without the performance


For your mission, the 421 seems ideal. The 700nm trips will be a whip, but the 200nm wont be any different than any other plane. For me, I decided on the MU2 a while back and just haven't been able to put the right one together yet. My decision was based on the info above but the "I want to burn JetA" factor was the decider for me.
Also, you cant quantify crazy.

Sounds like a Beech 18 vs Twin Bonanza mission to me, but I'm not drawn to kerosene.

If I were, I'd be very tempted to look at MU-2s, having spent some time in the right seat of one. At 200 nm, your door-to-door time would be shorter in a Bonanza than an MU-2 because it takes so much longer to preflight and start the Mitsu.

I completely agree with Charles. The jump from a 36 to a 58 is a nice step up for a little more money. If you have a nice 36 you can probably bank some money when going to the 58.

Double the engine and prop reserves from $25 to $50 per hour. And then add 8 gph of fuel to go the same speed with the 58 over the 36 at $5/ gallon. And your still less than $100/hr premium over the 36.

Nose baggage makes filling all 6 seats practical in a 58. Plus the added CG envelope is a big deal. Its seriously hard to fly a 58 out of CG. Another thing that's missed a lot in the comparison on TN36's and NA58's is the higher airspeed limitations. The 58 top of the green is 195 Knots and VNE is over 220! You never fly the plane out of the green arc. That's a good feeling by the way. Plus having 7 hrs of fuel on board with out ever having to touch a fuel selector. That just removes one more point of failure from the risk profile.

Just some of my thoughts on a baron. And I've had lots of thoughts about going back down to a 36. I just can't bare the thought of giving up all the space, range, ease of loading, cg, let alone the redundancy and free deice (boots) on most 58's.

Thank you for all the insightful opinions. My whole life I lamented being smaller than average- 5'8" 150 lbs, but now that I fly, man it's awesome! And my six passenger A36 will work for the time being. Seriously though, I need to figure out what the delta is in true cost between a high end piston like the 421 and an MU2 or Turbo Commander or conquest. I really love the high dispatch and reliability of the A36 and fear a legacy complex piston twin will be a royal pain in the you know what to keep it well maintained. Am I incorrect in thinking the turboprops will be better in that regard? For 100hrs/ year of flying what's the estimated difference between those types?