BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Dec 2013, 21:13

I have flown the turbine Evolution twice and the piston once for pilot reports... This is an amazing airplane... If I could afford one, I would have one... LOP my B-55 PII can do just over 7 nm/gal 100LL @ 185 kts. The Evolution can do over 8 nm / Gal Jet A @ 285 kts.

It is a glorious airplane to fly! Solid as a rock, comfortable, and fast....

I flew the piston a few years ago, and Lycoming was still having teething pains with the IE2-580. If they get that squared away, it has some potential...

But a 450-500 hp Turbo Diesel would would be the real deal on this airframe... I bet is would have fuel specifics way over 10 nm/gal at 250 ktas...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Dec 2013, 22:28

Username Protected wrote:

For my mission a high performance piston has more utility. While I occasionally fly 1000 nautical mile trips, many of my flights are 250 nautical miles or less. A turbine seems to excel when flown in the flight levels but not an ideal choice for the 150 nautical mile flight. While I understand that the turbine can certainly do that trip, I'm led to believe that it isn't efficient in that role. Additionally, frequent flights of this nature may result in higher turbine maintenance.

There was an article written a few years back in AOPA magazine about flying a turbine Evolution and a piston Evolution from Oregon to OshKosh. While the turbine was 80+ knots faster! it had to stop for fuel. The piston version had the endurance to make the trip non- stop. Block to block, the piston was faster :bugeye:

Now if a high performance turbo-normalized diesel with 350-400 hp became an option, that would really sharpen my interest.

Block to block I highly doubt that a piston arrived that much faster than the -135A but I'm not going to say it isn't. But a -21, -34 or even the -135A would cost relatively the same and get there in almost the same amount of time. And you don't have to hold your pee for 7 hours. You need to weigh the nm per gallon vs the cost of 100LL and Jet A, as well as the difference in safety with having a turbine. IMO, I would never, EVER put a piston in one of these.

I would actually be willing to bet that the Turboprop version is cheaper to fly per nm.

P.S. I flew an Evolution today. It was awesome!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Dec 2013, 22:39

Username Protected wrote:

I looked at both the Epic and the Evolution fairly carefully last year at OSH (after visiting where my money was actually going at the Cirrus exhibit :whistle:

). I was much more impressed with the Epic. They are both in the same ball park more or less in terms of cost. But the Epic was roomier and easier to get in and out of for the pilot. The cockpit on the Epic was better too IMO.

At Epic they have an owner assist program that probably skates right at the edge of legal but I suspect that that is how all the planes get built. They probably have the same deal at Evolution but without checking me for a wire they wouldn't talk about it. Epic plans a certified version of their plane in the next couple of years I think.

The construction quality of what you could see on both planes looked excellent. But, as you know, it's what you can't see that counts. I spoke to owners of both airplanes (a couple each) and heard nothing but rave reviews. But, I was also at the manufacturers display…

My conclusion was that for the money I'd buy a used TBM.

I agree that the Evolution is fairly difficult to get in and out of, however I whole heartedly disagree that the Epic interior was better. I was thoroughly disappointed in the fit and finish of the Epic interior however I was very impressed with the interior of the Evolution.

Honestly, I don't think I'd buy a TBM if what I'm proposing existed. The Experimental market isn't what it used to be. Nobody in the certified market is innovating the way the Kit market is and thus you can get a much safer airplane for way less money... theoretically.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 00:45

Username Protected wrote:

I agree that the Evolution is fairly difficult to get in and out of, however I whole heartedly disagree that the Epic interior was better. I was thoroughly disappointed in the fit and finish of the Epic interior however I was very impressed with the interior of the Evolution.

Honestly, I don't think I'd buy a TBM if what I'm proposing existed. The Experimental market isn't what it used to be. Nobody in the certified market is innovating the way the Kit market is and thus you can get a much safer airplane for way less money... theoretically.

Gerry,

I think you should get one!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 00:57

Username Protected wrote:

Nobody in the certified market is innovating the way the Kit market is and thus you can get a much safer airplane for way less money... theoretically.

I'm just not seeing things the same way. I think Cirrus and a couple other manufacturers have done more for GA in the last 7 years than has happened in the last 50 years.

I am curious why you feel a non certified plane would be "safer". I'm not disagreeing. I'm no fan of all the certification BS. But I am a believer in the letting the market speak for itself. I don't feel most folks buying multi million $$ airplanes want to load up their family and fly cross country in an experimental. I think it's fine for us and our pilot buddies to go fly around in just not sure the market is there for legit cross country travel in an experimental.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 08:27

Gerry,
Have you flown a TBM? I think its everything your looking for in a certified package.
Fly it part 91 in the US and dont worry about time components.
The TBM as been tested to over 10g by the french military, you wont find a stronger airframe.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 12:27

Username Protected wrote:

Nobody in the certified market is innovating the way the Kit market is and thus you can get a much safer airplane for way less money... theoretically.

I'm just not seeing things the same way. I think Cirrus and a couple other manufacturers have done more for GA in the last 7 years than has happened in the last 50 years.

I am curious why you feel a non certified plane would be "safer". I'm not disagreeing. I'm no fan of all the certification BS. But I am a believer in the letting the market speak for itself. I don't feel most folks buying multi million $$ airplanes want to load up their family and fly cross country in an experimental. I think it's fine for us and our pilot buddies to go fly around in just not sure the market is there for legit cross country travel in an experimental.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 12:31

Username Protected wrote:

Gerry,
Have you flown a TBM? I think its everything your looking for in a certified package.
Fly it part 91 in the US and dont worry about time components.
The TBM as been tested to over 10g by the french military, you wont find a stronger airframe.

Yes I have. And I agree that it is a fantastic airplane. However, I'd argue that the design we want to go with could potentially be just as strong if not stronger. Carbon fiber is a win win material. Lighter, a lot stronger, allows for a smooth aerodynamic surface, and no hull life limit.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 12:37

Username Protected wrote:

no hull life limit.

This is just undisputed fact?

Also, why no certified Evolution? I think it would sell if they had one.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 13:36

Username Protected wrote:

no hull life limit.

This is just undisputed fact?

Also, why no certified Evolution? I think it would sell if they had one.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 13:38

Username Protected wrote:

You think someone would buy a $2+ million four seater?

Yes I do. A new Pilatus is $4.5MM and it's an 8 seater.

The Evolution has pretty low FF and a lot of speed. I know a lot of guys with Cirri that want more speed and don't necessarily need a bigger airplane.

Yes, I think a certified Evolution would sell for $2MM. It's a "never fly commercial again" airplane. But it must have G3000 etc. All the new stuff a Cirrus has. Not some knock off "experimental" stuff. It has to be like a Bimmer inside.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 13:53

Username Protected wrote:

You think someone would buy a $2+ million four seater?

Yes I do. A new Pilatus is $4.5MM and it's an 8 seater.

The Evolution has pretty low FF and a lot of speed. I know a lot of guys with Cirri that want more speed and don't necessarily need a bigger airplane.

Yes, I think a certified Evolution would sell for $2MM. It's a "never fly commercial again" airplane. But it must have G3000 etc. All the new stuff a Cirrus has. Not some knock off "experimental" stuff. It has to be like a Bimmer inside.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 14:03

Disagree all you want but how about this data point…..

Cirrus is launching their single engine jet for over $2MM and all my buddies want one. If I'm so wrong, then what is Cirrus up too?

I think a Certified Evolution would give better performance than the the Cirrus Jet. That Cirrus jet is gonna change the world because it's a "never fly commercial again" proposition. That's all new pilots motivation…. NO MORE COMMERCIAL.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 14:05

Username Protected wrote:

Disagree all you want but how about this data point…..

Cirrus is launching their single engine jet for over $2MM and all my buddies want one. If I'm so wrong, then what is Cirrus up too?

I think a Certified Evolution would give better performance than the the Cirrus Jet.

Just because all your buddies want one, doesn't mean they will all get one. Even if they do, they are in the minority of the number of people out there that can afford such a thing.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Dec 2013, 16:19

Here's my prediction and I've said this here before…… The future of general aviation/owner flown is:

Cirrus
Pilatus/TBM
Embraer
Cessna

All others will fall by the wayside and end in the junk heap or be gobbled up by one of the above.

I predict GA is gonna get a huge boost in the next few years thanks to mostly to Garmin but also to Cirrus. People want out of commercial aviation and into their own plane. Lot's of folks can afford to finance a $2MM plane if the operating costs are kept somewhat reasonable and training is not too onerous. Single engine allows for reasonable operating costs and automation/Garmin keeps training less onerous.

OT: Lancair Evolution