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 Post subject: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 13:16 
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I will have my PPL finished in the next few months and am looking to get an airplane. I really think the Debonair is the plane that fits my mission. I think the C182 would too but I like low wing aircraft and the more I read about Beech the more I want one.

Please be kind, I have tried to look up the answers on the net but couldn't find the answers.

My mission will be the $100 burger to the rare 600 mile trip. Most trips would be in the 200 mile range with one passenger. I'd like to be able to take three other grown ups with me from time to time and a lot of just cruising around the area enjoying being in the air.

Am I right in thinking the 33 will fill that mission?

I'm 6-4, 250#, will I fit in the plane? I currently train in a Piper Cherokee and it's tight and after two hours it gets uncomfortable but is still tolerable.

What's the difference between a 33 and a Debonair?

What are the negatives about the 33?

Could you recommend any books for the first time plane buyer and any specific books for the 33?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 13:29 
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Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but technicaly isn't a debonair a bonanza 33? As far as the info I have seen, they are preety much the same albeit a few differences. Esteticaly speaking, the planes are almost identical to the untrained eye.
Being a member for about a month and reading the countless threads on the Bonanzas, I highly recommend you look into them further. Ofcourse, Bonanzas are more expensive, but the V-tails go cheap usually. Look at the 35s, especially the N35s and above since they have the more powerful engines.

Eitherway, welcome to the wonderful world of Beechcraft :thumbup:. I am looking for a Baron myself... well, my father is anyways (he's got the dough) :tada:

A book I would recommend to you is "Flying the Bonanza".
You can find it here:
https://secure5.webfirst.com/abs/store.cfm

which leads me to another thing, if you are serious about buying a beechcraft, you NEED to become a member of ABS.

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Planes flown: Cessna 172, Cessna 172 NavIII, Cessna 337 Skymaster, Piper Arrow IV.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 13:36 
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thanks. I would love a 35 but there are two words associated with that plane that have led me to the 33. I don't want to get yelled at so I won't mention them.

My budget is $100,000ish.

I was thinking of buying a friend's Cherokee and using it as a time builder and getting my instrument in it then selling and getting what I want long term but after reading this website and a few others I have decided to buy my second plane first. :)

anyone have any advice?


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 13:49 
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thanks. I would love a 35 but there are two words associated with that plane that have led me to the 33. I don't want to get yelled at so I won't mention them.

My budget is $100,000ish.

I was thinking of buying a friend's Cherokee and using it as a time builder and getting my instrument in it then selling and getting what I want long term but after reading this website and a few others I have decided to buy my second plane first. :)

anyone have any advice?

Well, if you are set on the debonair, you should definetaly check out the C33A since its got the IO-520 (285hp).
Here is a specs sheet table I found for you:

C33A debonair
Engine: CONT IO-520-B
75% Cruise: 173 kts
Wingspan: 32.83 ft
Horsepower: 285
Stall: 53 kts
Length: 25.50 ft
Rec'd TBO: 1700 hrs
Range: 520 nm
Height: 8.25 ft
Svr Ceiling: 18300 ft
Empty Wt: 1775 lbs
Std Fuel: 50 gal
Rate of Climb: 1200 ft/min Gross Wt: 3300 lbs
Max Fuel: 80 gal
Takeoff (over 50 ft obstacle): 1225 ft
Landing (over 50 ft obstacle): 1150 ft
Takeoff: 880 ft
Landing: 632 ft

S35 Bonanza:
Engine: CONT IO-520-B
75% Cruise: 178 kts
Wingspan: 33.42 ft
Horsepower: 285
Stall: 53 kts
Length: 26.33 ft
Rec'd TBO: 1700 hrs
Range: 543 nm
Height: 6.50 ft
Svr Ceiling: 18300 ft
Empty Wt: 1915 lbs
Std Fuel: 50 gal
Rate of Climb: 1200 ft/min
Gross Wt: 3300 lbs
Max Fuel: 80 gal
Takeoff (over 50 ft obstacle): 1225 ft
Landing (over 50 ft obstacle): 1150 ft
Takeoff: 880 ft
Landing: 625 ft

See the difference? not allot. The bonanza has a bit more range but by only 20nm and faster by about 5 kts, which is almost nothing. It preety much all comes down to if you want a V-tail or otherwise.

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Planes flown: Cessna 172, Cessna 172 NavIII, Cessna 337 Skymaster, Piper Arrow IV.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 15:43 
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Aircraft: 1972 Bonanza V35B
Quote:
I would love a 35 but there are two words associated with that plane that have led me to the 33


Are you a doctor?

All Debonairs are 33's. All 33's are not Debonairs. Read Larry Ball's two books for detailed information and specifications on Bonanza and Bonanza derivative aircraft:

Those Incomparable Bonanzas
They Called Me Mr. Bonanza

These books can be found through Amazon or bought new through the merchandise section of the American Bonanza Society (bonanza.org)

A quick summary of Bonanzas in AOPA magazine, 1995
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/1995/bonanza9512.html

A search of Wikipedia under Beech Bonanza will yield a lot of information (95% correct).

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Max Grogan

Come fly with me.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 15:51 
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thanks Max. No doctor here but I know what you're talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 17:34 
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Location: Charlotte, NC (KUZA)
Aircraft: 1968 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
thanks. I would love a 35 but there are two words associated with that plane that have led me to the 33. I don't want to get yelled at so I won't mention them.

My budget is $100,000ish.

I was thinking of buying a friend's Cherokee and using it as a time builder and getting my instrument in it then selling and getting what I want long term but after reading this website and a few others I have decided to buy my second plane first. :)

anyone have any advice?


Scott,

What are the two words? Could they be "Goes Faster", "Weighs Less", "Carries More", "Looks prettier" :D . You really should include the S35, V35, V35A, and V35B in your consideration as they are in your price range.

There are many good airplanes in your price range. Hire a buying agent that knows Bonanzas. A good buying agent can save you much more than they charge. There was a recent post, might have been on this forum, where a new owner found out at a service clinic that the dynamic brake was not working. It will likely cost him $3,500+ to take care of it. Any good Bonanza buyers agent knows how to test the dynamic brake, for that matter so do many Bonanza owners.

If you are located in the Southeast, I am located in Charlotte, NC.

_________________
Regards,

John D. Collins CFI, CFII, MEI
68 V35A N7083N Home Base KUZA
Charlotte, NC
(704) 576-3561 Cell


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 18:01 
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heh!
Thanks John. The two words that I'm not too comfortable with in regards to the 35 are inflight breakup. But then again, I don't know too much other than what I have read on the net.

I'm in Oklahoma and I know a guy that flys all kinds of aircraft from a Citation XLS as a coprorate pilot to Piper Cubs. He's also a CFII and A&P. I was thinking that he would be a good person to have look a plane over for me although I don't know how much he knows about Bonanzas.

What's the best way to go about finding a buyer's agent? How much do they typically charge?

As you can see I really don't know much about anything other than I'd like a Beech 33 or possibly a 35 if someone could convince me that my fear is unfounded.

Thanks again!

Also, is insurance going to kill me if I have less than 100 hours when I get a high performance complex plane?

And will I fit in there comfortably?


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 18:27 
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Location: Shreveport, Louisiana (KDTN)
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Username Protected wrote:
Also, is insurance going to kill me if I have less than 100 hours when I get a high performance complex plane?


Scott,

Don't let the insurance scare you off. I bought a 35 back in October of last year and I'm still a student. Currently my father-in-law, who is my piloting mentor, is the insured PIC on the plane. Once I have my PPL (checkride is next week :ohno: ), Avemco reqires a 10 hour signoff and an extra $1,300 per year to cover me. Given the costs of everything related to aviation, I thought it was pretty reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 18:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
heh!
Thanks John. The two words that I'm not too comfortable with in regards to the 35 are inflight breakup. But then again, I don't know too much other than what I have read on the net.

I'm in Oklahoma and I know a guy that flys all kinds of aircraft from a Citation XLS as a coprorate pilot to Piper Cubs. He's also a CFII and A&P. I was thinking that he would be a good person to have look a plane over for me although I don't know how much he knows about Bonanzas.

What's the best way to go about finding a buyer's agent? How much do they typically charge?

As you can see I really don't know much about anything other than I'd like a Beech 33 or possibly a 35 if someone could convince me that my fear is unfounded.

Thanks again!

Also, is insurance going to kill me if I have less than 100 hours when I get a high performance complex plane?

And will I fit in there comfortably?

Scott,
Every plane is eligible for an infight brakeup. You can't base your purchase on just a few accidents. The aero commander, one of the safest twins ever made (I am not just saying that, its the only piston twin ever to be a presidential transport) has had a history of infilight brakeups because the wings take most of the stress while landing and the wing spar tends to crack over time. If you take care of your plane, and pay attention to the AD notes, you will never have a problem. My father has owned 3 aero commanders and can only say good things about it. :wave:

_________________
PPL/SEL=125 TT
Planes flown: Cessna 172, Cessna 172 NavIII, Cessna 337 Skymaster, Piper Arrow IV.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 18:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
Also, is insurance going to kill me if I have less than 100 hours when I get a high performance complex plane?


Scott,

Don't let the insurance scare you off. I bought a 35 back in October of last year and I'm still a student. Currently my father-in-law, who is my piloting mentor, is the insured PIC on the plane. Once I have my PPL (checkride is next week :ohno: ), Avemco reqires a 10 hour signoff and an extra $1,300 per year to cover me. Given the costs of everything related to aviation, I thought it was pretty reasonable.


thanks a bunch. That's about what my friend pays for his Cherokee 140.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 21:40 
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Location: Charlotte, NC (KUZA)
Aircraft: 1968 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
heh!
Thanks John. The two words that I'm not too comfortable with in regards to the 35 are inflight breakup. But then again, I don't know too much other than what I have read on the net.

...

As you can see I really don't know much about anything other than I'd like a Beech 33 or possibly a 35 if someone could convince me that my fear is unfounded.

Thanks again!



From the safety review conducted by AOPA of the 35,33, and 36 in the late 1980/early 1990 period:

ABRIEF HISTORY OF THE BE35 TAIL REPAIR
In response to the long-running controversy about the V-tail Bonanza's structural integrity, the American Bonanza Society in 1984 asked the FAA to check out the aircraft to determine once and for all whether it was flawed. Beech agreed to cooperate fully in the investigation, and the FAA commissioned, through the Department of Transportation, a study of the matter to be accomplished
by a blue-ribbon panel of engineering expens. The panel's findings, in a nutshell, were that although the V-tail Bonanza evidently met the certification regulations, those engineering specifications failed to encompass the idiosyncrasies of the V-tail configuration. DOT recommended further testing.

As a result of the study completed in 1986, the FAA issued a "slow-down" order (AD 86-21-07) to remain in effect until a fix was provided. This slow-down order reduced the never-exceed speed (Vne), maximum structural cruising speed (Vno), and maneuvering speed (Va) for the affected Vtail aircraft and limited operation to Normal category only. Separate values were specified for models 35 through 035 and models H35 through V35B.

In 1987, Beech provided at company expense a fix that involved installation of a stabilizer reinforcement kit at the root of the V-tail. This fix was implemented by AD 87-20-02. Since incorporation of this AD in the BE35 fleet, V-tail inflight breakups have decreased dramatically. Only three have occurred in the past six years. Additional information about the V-tail controversy is contained in Part 4 of this review. Compliance with AD 87-20-02 does not in any way eliminate the need for proper balancing of the BE35 ruddervators, especially after painting.

While the V-tail got blamed for the in-flight breakups, improper weight and balance (aft CO) combined with lack of IFR proficiency could have been contributing factors. Several "loss of control, exceeded design limits" accidents occurred in IMC with three or four persons on board. Vtail Bonanzas have a narrower CO envelope than those with a conventional tail; thus loading is more critical.

_________________
Regards,

John D. Collins CFI, CFII, MEI
68 V35A N7083N Home Base KUZA
Charlotte, NC
(704) 576-3561 Cell


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 14 May 2008, 22:03 
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Posts: 5494
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Location: Charlotte, NC (KUZA)
Aircraft: 1968 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
...

I'm in Oklahoma and I know a guy that flys all kinds of aircraft from a Citation XLS as a coprorate pilot to Piper Cubs. He's also a CFII and A&P. I was thinking that he would be a good person to have look a plane over for me although I don't know how much he knows about Bonanzas.

What's the best way to go about finding a buyer's agent? How much do they typically charge?
...

Also, is insurance going to kill me if I have less than 100 hours when I get a high performance complex plane?

And will I fit in there comfortably?


Your friend might be a good advisor, but only if he is a Beech Bonanza expert. There are just too many gotcha's for the experienced A&P that don't have Bonanza expertise that may cost you unnecessarily.

I can probably help locate someone for you nearby. If I were closer, I could do it for you. My typical charges for an an airplane that will meet your specifications is on the order of $4000 to $5000. My last customer saved $35,000 off of the asking price to account for issues I pointed out and would have passed on the airplane if we had not received the consideration. We did schedule a pre buy on the West Coast for the same customer, traveled to look at the airplane which was badly misrepresented, and returned home the next day, without even having a mechanic look at the airplane.

Insurance will likely cost you an additional 1500 to 1800 the first year until you have an instrument rating and at least several hundred hours under your belt. So expect to have to pay $3000 to $3500 for a year or so. Undoubtedly, they will ask for a 15 to 25 hour checkout by a Bonanza instructor and may require that you solo another 10 or so hours before carrying passengers.

The pilot seats lower as they are adjusted to the rear to give you tall guys more headroom. The rudder pedals have three adjustable settings to give you more leg room. I know of several Bonanza pilots who are in the 6ft 2 in to 6 ft 6 in range and they all report it is comfortable. I am a short shit so, I had my seats built up and use the rear most rudder pedal setting.

_________________
Regards,

John D. Collins CFI, CFII, MEI
68 V35A N7083N Home Base KUZA
Charlotte, NC
(704) 576-3561 Cell


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 15 May 2008, 07:14 
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Posts: 94
Aircraft: Baron B55
I owned a V35B for 5 years, and it was clearly the best aircraft I have ever flown. I sold it to become a partner in a Baron, and while it too is a great aircraft, I miss the V35B. If I ever sell the Baron, I'm right back into the v-tail.

Before I purchased my v-tail, I read everything I could find about the V-tail breakup issues as well as spoke to the ABS. The opinion of ABS was that if you maintain the plane and balance the ruddervators after painting, there is no concern whatsoever. If I recall the conversation correctly, there has been absolutely 0 failures of H35 (1958?) or above V-tails due to an extra spar that was installed in the tail during that time period to make it much stronger. The cuff fix is to add even more structural integrity. I watched my mechanic balance the ruddervator after I had my aircraft painted and it was a piece of cake. He said it was very easy to do, the problem is some mechanics in the past didn't rebalance the controls on any aircraft after painting, it just turned out to be more important in the v-tail Keeping the trim cables the right tension was a one time event after painting the ruddervators and never needed to be done again. I checked them before each flight and essentially they should be loose enough to move the turn buckle, but tight enough to not have any slack.

If you take a look down the long rows of V35Bs at Oshkosh, it is always interesting to me to see how many have slack trim cables, and a few that appear to have had some extra paint applied to the tail. If your not going to maintain an aircraft, don't buy one. If you are, then I wouldn't worry about it what so ever.

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions about the Debonair
PostPosted: 15 May 2008, 08:08 
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Location: Charlotte, NC (KUZA)
Aircraft: 1968 Bonanza V35A
There is one comment in the AOPA safety report that I don't agree with, that is that the V tail has a tighter CG range than the standard tail. While strictly true, it is effectively false. Comparing the F33A with the V35B, the F33A has a CG envelope that is an extra inch more to the rear, 86.7 inches for the F33A verses 85.7 inches for the V35B. The F33A envelope is a straight line for all weights from 3400 lbs and lower at 86.7 whereas the V35B is a sloping line starting at 3400 lbs and 84.4 inches until reaching the 85.7 inch value at 3000 lbs and from there it remains constant at the 85.7 inch value for lower weights. All the other loading factors are identical for fuel, pilot, copilot, passengers, and baggage.

This might lead one to the conclusion drawn by the AOPA report, that the CG range is better on the F33A than on the V35B. But there are several facts that make this untrue in most of the above aircraft. I have a survey of empty weight and balance figures that include 27 F33A aircraft and 29 V35/A/B aircraft. The average F33A is 48 lbs heavier than the average V35B. More important, the average empty CG starts 2.35 inches further aft for the F33A in comparison to the V35B. Note that at 3400 lbs, the V35B has an Aft CG limit 2.3 inches further forward than the F33A, but that the F33A starts out 2.35 inches more to the rear!

As the bonanza burns off fuel, the CG shifts to the rear. So, it is possible to start off within the envelope and end up outside of the rear CG. At weights below 3000 lbs the V35B has the advantage by 1.3 inches more range. At weights 3400 lbs down to 3000 lbs, the envelope of the V35B shifts rearward at exactly the same slope as for fuel burn, so as the fuel is used and the CG shifts to the rear, the envelope accommodates this by shifting to the rear an equal amount. So if a V35B takes off at 3400 lbs and at the aft CG limit, it will not be out of the CG envelope until 400 lbs of fuel is consumed, or 66.7 gallons. The average F33A loaded identically will be 48 lbs over gross and at the aft CG limit. Any fuel burn will put the F33A outside the Aft CG!

_________________
Regards,

John D. Collins CFI, CFII, MEI
68 V35A N7083N Home Base KUZA
Charlotte, NC
(704) 576-3561 Cell


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