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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 11:44 
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Company: MBG Properties
Location: Knoxville, TN (KDKX)
Aircraft: 1972 Bonanza V35B
I have heard of a fellow who has a tank of 100LL and a tank of mogas at his farm strip. His plane has a NA520 engine. His right wing tank has 100LL and the other mogas. He does his takeoffs, climbs and descents using 100LL. He only burns the mogas above 6,000'. He's been doing this for over thirty years and approx. 4,500 hours, so that's approx. 2,200 hours of mogas use in his engines.

I burned a few hundred gallons of mogas in my E-225 when I had an F35. The engine actually ran better on 87 octane mogas than on 100LL.

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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 15:31 
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Mark,

1) No modifications are involved on the Debbie. Only paper work and plackards

2) As I have written in other threads I have used mogas extensively on my previous planes and have only good experiences. I also used to belong to a club where we flew Cherokees and Cessnas hundreds of hours on mogas with no ill effects.

The only downside I can think of is that mogas cannot be stored like avgas. So if you have periods where you do not use the plane fill it up with 100LL.


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 15:56 
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Company: USAF Propulsion Laboratory
Location: Dayton, OH
Aircraft: PA24, Aerostar 680
A friend of mine has been using mogas for years in his Cessna. Not a problem. As mentioned before, it doesn't store for a lengthy period. And you can't use the crap with achohol in it, and that is getting to be more difficult to find. You could get a small 100 gallon tank to fill your plane up with rather than flying just to get gas. My oil distributor considers 100 gal minimum delivery for my farm tanks. And yes, you can mix 100LL with mogas. They usually recommend using a load of 100LL on occasion.


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 15:58 
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Location: Stuart, FL (KSUA)
Aircraft: 1967 Bonanza V35
Quote:
They usually recommend using a load of 100LL on occasion.



Based on any technical reasoning?


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 16:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
They usually recommend using a load of 100LL on occasion.



Based on any technical reasoning?


Yep, to lube the valves. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 17:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
They usually recommend using a load of 100LL on occasion.


Based on any technical reasoning?


I am far from an expert... and there are some experts on fuels on this list..hope they chime in.

Earlier in this thread Charles Wolff made a comment about not using mogas in fuel bladders. I think Charles's point got lost in the dissussion. I think there is some good evidence that mogas "can" be harder on some fuel system components than 100LL.
Maybe due to a higher tolulene content in mogas??

My thought was to alway buy a little 100LL from time to time to try to protect the fuel system....not the lube the valves. :crazy: :bat:

Even if mogas is harder on the fuel system components and you have more maintence... the economics of running mogas in the low compression engines... can far outway the "potiential" higher maintence cost.

IF you have a local source for non ethanol mogas to your airplane... figure $4 mogas vs. the national average $6/gallon 100LL at today's fuel prices. .
That's roughly $24 per hour in fuel savings...

Leldon


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 17:43 
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Leldon, that fuel cost margin may well widen in the future.
Here in Oz there are very few airports with Mogas. So by default every 4th or 5th tank is Avgas. At least here in the South there is no ethanol in premium fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 17:50 
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Never heard of problems with bladders. I know two Cessna 182Ps (Conti and bladders) that use MOGAS. They are both used to lift parachutists and fly ca 300 hours a year.

One of them has almost exclusively been using MOGAS since 2002. No problems with bladders or anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 18:48 
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Company: USAF Propulsion Laboratory
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Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
They usually recommend using a load of 100LL on occasion.



Based on any technical reasoning?

Theoretically to lubricate the valves. Not sure if that really holds any merit. SOme of the planes I know of flying mogas probably have not seen a drop of 100LL in a decade.


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 21:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
Maybe due to a higher tolulene content in mogas??


Pretty sure you've got that backwards.


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2012, 22:23 
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Back in the 1980's the winter blend mogas had very low boiling points. This old data has become the basis for Old Wives Tales (OWT) regarding mogas in airplanes. However, this has changed as the EPA now requires a lower Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) for mogas to reduce evaporative emissions, which has much higher boiling points. This has greatly improved mogas' utility for aircraft. I recently did a fractional distillation check on samples of non-ethanol summer blend mogas and 100LL, and found very similar boiling points. I will retest winter blend gas this winter.

I have personally used mogas in rubber fuel bladder airplanes (an old V-tail for 10 years, and my Deb for 5 years so far), without problems. I asked Peterson about mogas in bladder fuel cells, and he said there is no evidence of a problem. I also asked the bladder supplies/rebuilders and they verified this.

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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2012, 09:42 
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I have personally used mogas in rubber fuel bladder airplanes (an old V-tail for 10 years, and my Deb for 5 years so far), without problems. I asked Peterson about mogas in bladder fuel cells, and he said there is no evidence of a problem. I also asked the bladder supplies/rebuilders and they verified this.


Dan etal,
Probably waaay over my head and pay grade here... I stated I was no expert...

The point I was trying to make was MAYBE we are talking about fuel bladders (and some other fuel system components) having a reduced life span on mogas vs. 100LL. How much???.... for example... on fuel bladders maybe only lasting 15 to 18 years on mogas vs. 25 yr + on 100LL???
Those kind of problems would be hard for most owners to determine were caused by the mogas vs. normal aging and deterioration.
It would be hard to get good data to compare apples to apples.

My personal anedotal experience is putting three 40 gallon fuel bladders in my C33 in a 18 year time span after starting using mogas. I'm absolutely anal about keeping my fuel cells full and the airplane in the hangar. Granted the hot south is a harder environment on fuel cells than cooler climates.

Read the bottom of this page for Eagle's take on mogas and how to get the longest life from their fuel cells...
http://www.eaglefuelcells.com/ga/tech_tips.html

I'm still very much pro mogas use in the low compression engines.
You can save enough money to buy lots of fuel bladders and still be $ ahead.

Of course.. when it comes to fuels... WDIK??
I've probably exceeded my post quota on this thread. :eek: :sad: :deadhorse:

Leldon


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2012, 10:56 
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Aircraft: 1972 Bonanza V35B
Right now the differential in cost of mogas and 100LL in Knoxville is:

100LL is $5.26
Mogas retail is $3.45 minus $.18 state road tax refund = $3.27.

The difference in cost for 100 hours X 12 gph is $2,400.

1,500 hours (TBO) X $2 per gallon fuel cost savings = $30,000, and local overhaul on an E engine is slightly less than $20,000.

The one thing I missed most after I sold my F35 was the savings on fuel by using mogas. 'Wish I could use it now.

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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2012, 12:39 
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Quote:
Mogas retail is $3.45 minus $.18 state road tax refund = $3.27.


Ethanol free? Good deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Mogas STC
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2012, 18:48 
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Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Aircraft: C33 Debonair CD882
Just for your interest this is the scenario Down Under:
Avgas - currently around $8.52 per USG
Mogas (Premium) - $5.56 less $1.21 non road use rebate (business) = $4.35 USG.

Fuel cost per hour:
Avgas - $112.46
Mogas - $57.42

Saving over 1500 hr life of the engine = $82,560

You are probably beginning to see why I like it so much.

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