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 Post subject: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2012, 23:26 
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Joined: 08/09/09
Posts: 346
Post Likes: +15
Company: TriCity Automotive
Location: North Carolina
Aircraft: 1991 F33A IO550
I am considering adding tip tanks to my F33A, any suggestions on DShannon or Osborne?

I have read that there is some potential for some kind of problems-- maybe controll flutter with the DShannons unless you do some extra work, like wiights on the ailerons.

Any info appreciated.

Sam


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 07:51 
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Joined: 09/27/09
Posts: 3066
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Company: Coats & Evans, PC
Location: The Woodlands, TX (KDWH)
Aircraft: 1989 Bonanza F33A
I bet Dave Biggertstaff will chime in with the technical data, but I love my D'Shannon 20 gallon tips. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 08:26 
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Joined: 08/06/10
Posts: 43
Post Likes: +3
Aircraft: Bonanza A36
I installed the D'Shannon tips this summer and love them. You do need to rebalance the ailerons but that was easy.


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 09:19 
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 5654
Post Likes: +1690
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA
Aircraft: Decathlon, TBM 850
I've had both. They are both great. If you'll do a search there has been a lot of recent discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 09:31 
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Joined: 11/01/08
Posts: 3127
Post Likes: +292
Location: Tucson, KAVQ - WI, KHYR
Aircraft: A36
Username Protected wrote:
I am considering adding tip tanks to my F33A, any suggestions on DShannon or Osborne?

I have read that there is some potential for some kind of problems-- maybe controll flutter with the DShannons unless you do some extra work, like wiights on the ailerons.

Any info appreciated.

Sam

I have dshannons and no issues. Not sure what the flutter comment refers too


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 10:14 
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Joined: 03/01/09
Posts: 1245
Post Likes: +89
Company: Red Hawk
Location: TVC - Traverse City, MI
Aircraft: 1986 TN A36 Bonanza
I have the Osbornes and I like them a lot. I like the look and saw no difference in the way my A36 flew. I would just suggest if you're going to do it, get the 20 gallons either way. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 12:52 
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Joined: 12/01/09
Posts: 24
Post Likes: +6
Aircraft: BONANZA P-35
I PUT OSBORNES ON AND PLUMBED THEM TO PUMP INTO THE MAINS VICE DIRECTLY TO THE ENGINE. A FRIEND HAD HIS GO TO THE ENGINE AND IF HE GOT A LITTLE BUSY AT THE WRONG TIME IT GOT A LITTLE QUIET. DID NOTICE WHAT SEEMED LIKE A BIT OF DUTCH ROLL WITH THE TIPS FULL THO VERY SLIGHT. ALL THE TIPS ARE GREAT AS YOU CAN TANKER AND WATCH FOR GOOD PRICES. I THINK OSBORNES ARE PUTTING LED LIGHTS IN THE NAV PORTION NOW. IF NOT THEY ARE WELL WORTH THE MONEY.


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 18:28 
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Joined: 05/14/09
Posts: 401
Post Likes: +75
Location: Chattanooga, TN (KFGU)
Username Protected wrote:
I am considering adding tip tanks to my F33A, any suggestions on DShannon or Osborne?

I have read that there is some potential for some kind of problems-- maybe controll flutter with the DShannons unless you do some extra work, like wiights on the ailerons.

Any info appreciated.

Sam


I had BDS on my G36, and had no problems. I could not tell the difference when they were added other than 2 to 3 hours more flying time and about 150 pounds increase in max take off weight. Great service by DShannon.


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 19:42 
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Joined: 12/10/11
Posts: 1930
Post Likes: +311
Location: Shelbyville, TN (KSYI)
Aircraft: 1975 Baron B55
Dashannon are great!! Add usefu load increase range and stability yet the stall chaaicteristics in in aircraft change-dramatically!!. With a little luck should never be a problem except on bi-annual flight review.


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 22:54 
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Aircraft: *****
Username Protected wrote:
I bet Dave Biggertstaff will chime in with the technical data


Yes I will.... with a BT quote from someone much more knowledgeable than me on the aerodynamics of Tip Tanks. Dave Braun.

The aileron balance weights have been a required part of the D'Shannon family of tip tank STCs for a very long time. As recently as April 2007 D'Shannon examined the question with the introduction of the newly styled canted 20 gallon tank, and again in 2010. The process involved is based on ground vibration and flutter analyses and has been researched in June of 1975; July of 1976; July of 1977; January of 2007 and as mentioned in April of 2007 and in 2010.

The critical condition is with full fuel with the flutter mode being wing antisymmetric torsion/aileron rotation. It happens that wing bending loads are not an issue. This means that fuel empty conditions do not have to be analyzed. The reduction on control surface hinge moment at 20,000 feet was also examined for 1.2Vd (1.2 x Design Dive Speed). Beech can name Vd as it is a design parameter although in reality it varies directly with gross weight (gross weight goes up, Vd goes up). Vd is supposed to be 1.5 Vc (Structural Cruise speed) which has been constant at 165 KCAS over many models regardless of the gross weight, so that means Vd is about 250 KCAS. Beech had to demonstrate that the Bonanza could withstand a 15 fps vertical gust at Vd and a 30 fps vertical gust at Vc. It also must fly without flutter or control reversal at Vd.

As John Eckalbar says "With proper balance, you can be sure you won't see flutter at speeds below about 250 KCAS, but when a surface is not properly balanced, the flutter speed might be much lower." We could add that "if we change the Wing Antisymetric Torsion Flutter Mode (add Tip Tanks) and the surface isn't properly balanced, the flutter speed might be much lower." That's why D'Shannon looks at aileron balance, and the FAA requires us to look at it up to 1.2 Vd. Note that Vne which is 203 KCAS is the legal limit on the Bonanza, so flying at Vd is illegal, test pilot, or out of control flight territory.

D'Shannon requires a Static Overbalance of 6.43 in-lbs on the 33/35 and 4.09 in-lbs on the 36 when equipped with their tip tanks. Beech's requirement is 0.2 in-lbs overbalance or greater. Our experience is that some shops have trouble properly measuring overbalance, and as such properly balancing control surfaces.

In real world application, the addition of a three-bladed prop can result in some aileron buzz with full tip tanks. But sometimes adding a three-bladed prop can result in some aileron buzz on aircraft without tip tanks. Sometimes this buzz has been traced to a improperly balanced prop, an engine that is no longer balanced, worn mounts, or a lack of proper aileron overbalance. It does not present itself often with two bladed props. It is also noted that transferring a few gallons out of the tip tank reduces the buzz, as does reducing airspeed or altitude. The buzz is annoying and control surfaces can be damaged (cracks develop) but it isn't the same as flutter ("flapping back and forth like a flag in a high wind" - also Eckalbar) which could result in the loss of the control surface without the warning signs of a crack noticed during pre-flight. Gap Seals have also been noted to reduce aileron buzz, and some pilots like the handling qualities of the aircraft so equipped.

People who may be flying the D'Shannon tip tanks without installing the aileron overbalance weights, and carefully measuring their aileron overbalance are fooling themselves. It may work at normal airspeeds, but look down at a chart or reach behind you for a beverage and drop a wing... hey, we've all been there.

So to say that the static over balance on a D'Shannon installation is to forestall vibration would be a mis-statement. It is there to prevent flutter at full fuel loads, at high altitude, at high air speeds. I'm at a loss to understand how the Osborne tanks were certified without addressing this issue, but I can only address what D'Shannon has done to mitigate this possibility.

I hope this helps you out,
Warmly,
Dave



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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2012, 23:23 
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Joined: 08/09/09
Posts: 346
Post Likes: +15
Company: TriCity Automotive
Location: North Carolina
Aircraft: 1991 F33A IO550
Thanks for all the replies,
I also talked to Scott at DShannon today. He was really helpful and gave me lots of good information.
Sam


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2012, 00:03 
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Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 3576
Post Likes: +605
Company: Inscrutable Fasteners, LLC
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Aircraft: TN IO550 V35B
FWIW, I have the BDS 15 gallon tanks on my V35B, and a 3-bladed Scimitar, and everything is rock steady, full or empty, at all different engine speeds.

I really like the stone simple level strips and "dump to the mains" systems.

Scott E and Dave B have been extremely helpful with any questions I've had.

Best,
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2012, 18:55 
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 506
Post Likes: +78
Location: Y14
Aircraft: A36
Username Protected wrote:
Thanks for all the replies,
I also talked to Scott at DShannon today. He was really helpful and gave me lots of good information.
Sam


I just got off the phone with Scott as I had to push back my tip install a week or 2. He is simply great to work with. You just can't go wrong with D'Shannon when people like Scott are at the helm. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2012, 21:15 
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Joined: 08/08/08
Posts: 111
Company: McCrory Construction Co
Location: KCAE Columbia SC
Aircraft: 58P Baron
Sam,
We had Osborne tips on our A36 and they worked great. The added range and GWI was worth it. My decision between the two came down to the look.

We did notice some vibration with tips and mains full. Gap seals appear to be the solution OR leaving a few gallons per side out of the tips.

Allen


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 Post subject: Re: Tip Tanks what brand to use
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2012, 10:58 
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Joined: 08/06/10
Posts: 43
Post Likes: +3
Aircraft: Bonanza A36
Username Protected wrote:
Thanks for all the replies,
I also talked to Scott at DShannon today. He was really helpful and gave me lots of good information.
Sam


I just got off the phone with Scott as I had to push back my tip install a week or 2. He is simply great to work with. You just can't go wrong with D'Shannon when people like Scott are at the helm. :thumbup:


I have to ditto the Scott at D'Shannon sentiment. I have his tanks and the only problem I've experienced is leaving one cap off after fueling. Was noticed at my next stop which was about 2:00 on the Friday before New Years with me heading to the Bahamas. One call........with Scott answering.......and I had a new cap the next day. I always say "Most anyone can shine with a high dollar sale.......It's the support after that says it all.

If I want it and BDS sells it I'll look no farther. I've got his baffle kit on my new 550......perfect fit. Tip tanks....perfect fit. Windshields next.

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