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 Post subject: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2009, 13:09 
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Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 164
Location: Redmond, WA
Aircraft: Chancellor 414A
I am going to do major avionics upgrades (Aspen 1000 PFD + 1000 MFD + EWR 50 weather, install a new Century 2000 AP, upgrade to 530 WAAS) and the shop tells me that it is going to take them 2+ months to complete all this work. I am worried that the engine will turn into a rust bucket in 2 months of just sitting in the shop :tongue: . The technician is surprised that I would be worried about this.. he said no customer ever expressed concern about this in the 17 years that he has been installing avionics... Am I nuts to be worried? What does everyone do when taking their aircraft offline for this long? Should I follow the TCM procedure to pickle the engine?

(I have a 1300 hour IO-520)

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Sameer
N414WS
KRNT
1980 Cessna Chancellor 414A


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2009, 13:29 
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Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 12143
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Location: St. Pete, FL
Aircraft: BE 58
Username Protected wrote:
I am going to do major avionics upgrades (Aspen 1000 PFD + 1000 MFD + EWR 50 weather, install a new Century 2000 AP, upgrade to 530 WAAS) and the shop tells me that it is going to take them 2+ months to complete all this work. I am worried that the engine will turn into a rust bucket in 2 months of just sitting in the shop :tongue: . The technician is surprised that I would be worried about this.. he said no customer ever expressed concern about this in the 17 years that he has been installing avionics... Am I nuts to be worried? What does everyone do when taking their aircraft offline for this long?

(I have a 1300 hour IO-520)


Sameer,
Wow, find a faster avionics shop, why on earth is it taking that long? They have more than one employee?

As for pickling, there's a "flyable storage" procedure in the manual, that could give some ideas, for not flying up to 30 days. Then there's "temporary storage" up to 90 days, and goes into pickling the engine with corrosion preventative oil, spraying the cylinders, etc.

Wouldn't hurt. Yea, two months is getting a bit long... but, again, I see no reason a good shop couldn't do that in half that time, or less.

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Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2009, 13:34 
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Joined: 06/23/09
Posts: 4557
Post Likes: +597
Company: Emergency Medicine
Location: ChattanoogaDayton, TN (2A0)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Here you go" This from the TCM web site:

Jay


TELEDYNE CONTINENTAL SIL99-1

Technical Portions FAA Approved
Supersedes M91-5




CONTAINS USEFUL INFORMATION PERTAINING TO THE CONTINENTAL AIRCRAFT ENGINE



SUBJECT: ENGINE PRESERVATION FOR ACTIVE AND STORED AIRCRAFT
PURPOSE: Provide current engine preservation information
COMPLIANCE: During periods as specified by this document
MODELS AFFECTED: All Continental Engine Models
GENERAL
There is no practical procedure that will insure corrosion prevention on installed aircraft engines. Susceptibility to corrosion is influenced by geographical location, season and usage. The owner/operator is responsible to recognize the conditions that are conducive to corrosion and take appropriate precautions.
ENGINE PRESERVATION
Corrosive attack can occur in engines that are flown only occasionally regardless of geographical location. In coastal areas and areas of high humidity, corrosive attack can occur in as little as two days. The best method of reducing the likelihood of corrosive attack is to fly the aircraft at least once every week for a minimum of one hour.
NOTE...
Corrosive attack may reduce engine service life. Of primary concern are cylinders, piston rings, valves, valve guides, camshaft and lifters.
TEMPORARY STORAGE (Aircraft that are not flown for 30 to 90 days)
Preparation for storage.
1. Remove oil sump drain plug and drain oil. Replace drain plug, torque and safety. Remove oil filter. Install new oil filter, torque and safety. Service engine to proper sump capacity with oil conforming to MIL-C-6529 Type II.
2. Perform a ground run-up. Perform a pre-flight inspection and correct any discrepancies. Fly the aircraft for one hour at normal operation temperatures.
WARNING
To prevent possibility of serious bodily injury or death, before moving the propeller accomplish the following:
a. Disconnect all spark plug leads.
b. Verify magneto switches are connected to magnetos, that they are in the "OFF" Position and "P" leads are grounded.
c. Throttle position "CLOSED."
d. Mixture control "IDLE-CUT-OFF."
e. Set brakes and block aircraft wheels. Insure that aircraft tie-downs are installed and verify that the cabin door latch is open.
f. Do not stand within the arc of the propeller blades while turning the propeller.
3. After flight remove all spark plug leads and remove the top spark plugs. Protect the ignition lead ends with AN-4060 Protectors. Using a common garden sprayer or equivalent, spray atomized preservative oil that meets MIL-P -46002, Grade 1, at room temperature through upper spark plug hole of each cylinder with the piston at bottom dead center position. Rotate crankshaft as opposite cylinders are sprayed. Stop crankshaft with none of the pistons at top dead center.
4. Re-spray each cylinder. To thoroughly cover all surfaces of the cylinder interior move the nozzle or spray gun from the top to the bottom of the cylinder.
5. Install top spark plugs but do not install spark plug leads.
6. Seal all engine openings exposed to the atmosphere using suitable plugs and covers. Attach a red "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" streamer at each location.
7. Tag each propeller in a conspicuous place with the following notation on the tag: DO NOT TURN PROPELLER - ENGINE PRESERVED - PRESERVATION DATE .
NOTE...
If the engine is not returned to flyable status on or before the 90-day expiration, it must be preserved in accordance with "Indefinite Storage" procedures in this document.
INDEFINITE STORAGE (Aircraft that are not flown for 90 days)
Preparation for storage:
1. Remove oil sump drain plug and drain oil. Replace drain plug, torque and safety. Remove oil filter Install new oil filter torque and safety. Service engine to proper sump capacity with oil conforming to MIL-C-6529 Type II.
2. Perform a ground run-up. Perform a pre-flight inspection and correct any discrepancies. Fly the aircraft for one hour at normal operation temperatures.
WARNING
To prevent possibility of serious bodily injury or death, before moving the propeller accomplish the following:
a. Disconnect all spark plug leads.
b. Verify magneto switches are connected to magnetos, that they are in the "OFF" Position and "P" leads are grounded.
c. Throttle position "CLOSED."
d. Mixture control "IDLE-CUT-OFF."
e. Set brakes and block aircraft wheels. Insure that aircraft tie-downs are installed and verify that the cabin door latch is open.
f. Do not stand within the arc of the propeller blades while turning the propeller.
3. After flight remove all spark plug leads and remove the spark plugs. Protect the ignition lead ends with AN-4060 Protectors. Install protective plugs P/N 22671 in bottom spark plug holes. Using a common garden sprayer or equivalent, spray atomized preservative oil that meets MIL-P-46002, Grade 1, at room temperature through upper spark plug hole of each cylinder with the piston at bottom dead center position. Rotate crankshaft as opposite cylinders are sprayed. Stop crankshaft with none of the pistons at top dead center.
4. Re-spray each cylinder. To thoroughly cover all surfaces of the cylinder interior move the nozzle or spray gun from the top to the bottom of the cylinder.
5. Install dehydrator plugs MS27215-1 or -2 in each of the upper spark plug holes. Make sure each plug is blue in color when installed.
6. Attach a red "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" streamer to each bag of desiccant. Place a bag of desiccant in the exhaust pipes and seal the openings.
7. Seal all engine openings exposed to the atmosphere using suitable plugs and covers.
8. Tag propeller in a conspicuous place with the following notation on the tag: DO NOT TURN PROPELLER - ENGINE PRESERVED -PRESERVATION DATE .
INDEFINITE STORAGE INSPECTION PROCEDURES
1. Aircraft prepared for indefinite storage must have the cylinder dehydrator plugs visually inspected every 15 days. The plugs must be changed as soon as they indicate other than a dark blue color. If the dehydrator plugs have changed color in one-half or more of the cylinders, all desiccant material on the engine must be replaced.
2. The cylinder bores of all engines prepared for indefinite storage must be re-sprayed with corrosion preventive mixture every 90 days.
RETURNING AN ENGINE TO SERVICE AFTER STORAGE
1. Remove seals and all desiccant bags.
2. Remove cylinder dehydrators and plugs or spark plugs from upper and lower spark plug holes.
3. Remove oil sump drain plug and drain the corrosion preventive mixture. Replace drain plug, torque and safety. Remove oil filter. Install new oil filter torque and safety. Service the engine with oil in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
WARNING
To prevent possibility of serious bodily injury or death, before moving the propeller accomplish the following:
a. Disconnect all spark plug leads.
b. Verify magneto switches are connected to magnetos, that they are in the "OFF" Position and "P" leads are grounded.
c. Throttle position "CLOSED."
d. Mixture control "IDLE-CUT-OFF."
e. Set brakes and block aircraft wheels. Insure that aircraft tie-downs are installed and verify that the cabin door latch is open.
f. Do not stand within the arc of the propeller blades while turning the propeller.
4. Rotate propeller by hand several revolutions to remove preservative oil.
5. Service and install spark plugs and ignition leads in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
6. Service engine and aircraft in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
7. Thoroughly clean the aircraft and engine. Perform visual inspection.
8. Correct any discrepancies.
9. Conduct a normal engine start.
10. Perform operational test in accordance with "Operational Inspection," of the applicable Maintenance Manual.
11. Correct any discrepancies.
12. Perform a test flight in accordance with airframe manufacturer's instructions.
13. Correct any discrepancies prior to returning aircraft to service.
14. Change oil and filter after 25 hours of operation.

_________________
Jay P.
Last 12: BFR, Solo training day w/6 landings, stalls air work, IFR ground school/IFR Dual.


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2009, 22:49 
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Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 14256
Post Likes: +932
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
I am going to do major avionics upgrades (Aspen 1000 PFD + 1000 MFD + EWR 50 weather, install a new Century 2000 AP, upgrade to 530 WAAS) and the shop tells me that it is going to take them 2+ months to complete all this work. I am worried that the engine will turn into a rust bucket in 2 months of just sitting in the shop :tongue: . The technician is surprised that I would be worried about this.. he said no customer ever expressed concern about this in the 17 years that he has been installing avionics... Am I nuts to be worried? What does everyone do when taking their aircraft offline for this long? Should I follow the TCM procedure to pickle the engine?

(I have a 1300 hour IO-520)


A year after I purchased my B55 it was vandalized and spent almost 3 months sitting idle for the subsequent repairs and painting plus an avionics upgrade. It did actually make two flights (to/from the avionics shop) a month into the idle time but there was no attempt to "pickle" the engine. During the annual the following year they found a corroded cam and two low compression cylinders on one engine which had about 1400 hours on it at the time. Coincidence?

_________________
-lance
Advice in this post may contain errors. Using said advice is totally at the risk of the user.


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2009, 00:18 
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Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 164
Location: Redmond, WA
Aircraft: Chancellor 414A
Interesting you mention, Lance. I had the same experience. I used to own a Maule which had a freshly top overhauled (10 hr) engine. Long story, but it had a ground loop/prop strike and sat idle for 3 months before they tore the engine open for strike inspection. They found the cylinders completely corroded and unserviceable.. (but no damage from the strike) my mechanic says thats because the cylinders were freshly overhauled, and they hadnt built an oil film yet. I am not entirely sure I believe that.

Larry - yes, they are taking way too long. They quoted 200 hours labor total (about the same as every other shop I checked with). The shop in question is Pacific Coast Avionics.

_________________
Sameer
N414WS
KRNT
1980 Cessna Chancellor 414A


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2009, 13:11 
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Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 14256
Post Likes: +932
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
Interesting you mention, Lance. I had the same experience. I used to own a Maule which had a freshly top overhauled (10 hr) engine. Long story, but it had a ground loop/prop strike and sat idle for 3 months before they tore the engine open for strike inspection. They found the cylinders completely corroded and unserviceable.. (but no damage from the strike) my mechanic says thats because the cylinders were freshly overhauled, and they hadnt built an oil film yet. I am not entirely sure I believe that.

Larry - yes, they are taking way too long. They quoted 200 hours labor total (about the same as every other shop I checked with). The shop in question is Pacific Coast Avionics.


I think there may be some truth to the idea that a fresh overhaul is more susceptible to corrosion in the cylinders (but not the cam). My parents bought a brand new Cessna 182 in 1982 that had been sitting pretty much idle on the dealer's ramp for a year and they ended up with severely corroded cylinders that showed up at the first annual. Fortunately for my dad he was able to get the dealer and/or Cessna to replace the cylinders under warranty. I suspect that the environmental conditions are a much greater factor though.

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-lance
Advice in this post may contain errors. Using said advice is totally at the risk of the user.


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2009, 13:37 
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Joined: 06/14/09
Posts: 745
Post Likes: +6
Location: Chicago, IL (KGYY), GA, KVLD, FL, KOPF
Aircraft: Cirrus SR22 Turbo
Sammer,

I would not pickle the engine. Just have an oil change just before you hand it off to them. At least it has fresh oil in it and you have eliminated some of the accumulated water as well as other pollutants. Also, two months seems like a long time. I just had a similar upgrade (to the G500 plus second 430) plus an annual and it took 5 weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2009, 20:22 
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Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 164
Location: Redmond, WA
Aircraft: Chancellor 414A
Username Protected wrote:
Sammer,

I would not pickle the engine. Just have an oil change just before you hand it off to them. At least it has fresh oil in it and you have eliminated some of the accumulated water as well as other pollutants. Also, two months seems like a long time. I just had a similar upgrade (to the G500 plus second 430) plus an annual and it took 5 weeks.


Thanks.. I will just put in fresh oil. I suspect most of the 200 hours is pulling out my Century IIIC and installing a 2000. 200 hours translates to one person working 5 business weeks, so two months still doesnt compute :scratch: .

_________________
Sameer
N414WS
KRNT
1980 Cessna Chancellor 414A


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2009, 21:17 
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Joined: 03/11/08
Posts: 19
Company: Audio Video Interiors
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Aircraft: Baron A55
As winter approaches this thread has me wondering, has anyone had any experience with Camguard? http://www.aslcamguard.com/ It looks like it may add some level of protection if they do in fact take two months to do the install.


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2009, 22:35 
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Joined: 12/18/07
Posts: 12979
Post Likes: +1112
Location: Chicago
Aircraft: Ex PA22, P28R, V35B
Username Protected wrote:
Sammer,

I would not pickle the engine. Just have an oil change just before you hand it off to them. At least it has fresh oil in it and you have eliminated some of the accumulated water as well as other pollutants. Also, two months seems like a long time. I just had a similar upgrade (to the G500 plus second 430) plus an annual and it took 5 weeks.


Also, add Camguard and take it for a flight before having it worked on. The Camguard puts a protective layer on all of the oil-lubricated parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Pickle the engine?
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2009, 22:56 
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Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 164
Location: Redmond, WA
Aircraft: Chancellor 414A
Username Protected wrote:
Sammer,

I would not pickle the engine. Just have an oil change just before you hand it off to them. At least it has fresh oil in it and you have eliminated some of the accumulated water as well as other pollutants. Also, two months seems like a long time. I just had a similar upgrade (to the G500 plus second 430) plus an annual and it took 5 weeks.


Also, add Camguard and take it for a flight before having it worked on. The Camguard puts a protective layer on all of the oil-lubricated parts.


Good idea. I am planning to change the oil to MIL-C-6529 Type II as prescribed in the TCM document (http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviat ... atives/2f/). Since this oil is also preservative, wonder if Camguard would mess up the chemistry somehow.
_________________
Sameer
N414WS
KRNT
1980 Cessna Chancellor 414A


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