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 Post subject: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016, 21:16 
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Location: Tucson, AZ (57AZ)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
I've had a few requests to write up something about the P337. I've had mine a bit over a year now and have put 120 hours on it so I have a decent feel for it, I think. It is also my 12th airplane so I have a reasonable ownership experience of different types of airplanes over the years. I've been flying 22 years (although after getting my certificate in 2004 I really didn't fly much until 2002) and have 1,800 hours, multi-ATP, commercial single engine, CFI, CFII & MEI just so you know my aviation background. I live in Tucson and currently fly mostly to Los Angeles, Las Vegas and the Baja of Mexico.

I buy airplanes to suit my needs at the time and my needs have regularly changed over the years. I'm not as bad as Todd or Tom but I have bought and sold more than my share of airplanes :whistle:

I have the right airplane for my needs right now. Many need or want greater speed, greater maximum altitude, greater useful load, greater pressurization differential, etc. I understand. My needs are different than many others' needs and that's OK. I fly solo 95% of the time and don't have the need to fly above 20,000 ft. I don't need a six place airplane with 2,000 lb of useful load that does over 200 kts on close to 40 GPH.

My previous airplanes were, in order:

Cherokee 140 (with 180 HP & C/S prop)
"C" model Mooney
Cessna 152 (bought in partnership with my CFI primarily so he could leave his flight school and work on his own)
Cirrus SR-22
Mooney Bravo (known ice)
Seneca III
"F" model Mooney (with turbo)
Colemill Baron (hence my joining this site)
Cessna 182
Twin Comanche
Lancair 320 (with IO-360)
P337

I posted the following specs in another thread earlier today and was once again asked to post more about the airplane so here it is.

187 KTAS at 17,500 ft.
23 GPH in cruise (yes, that's both engines and slightly LOP)
7,500 ft cabin at 17,500 ft (a frequently used altitude for my flights)
8+ NM/gal
Comfortable for four people, A/C works well too
$3,224.80 annual (last year, which was my first annual on this airplane)
$1,869 insurance premium with no formal school and only an annual IPC requirement
Examples are currently available for a purchase price between $60,000 - $90,000

The drawback: those that don't understand them like to make fun of them. And there are a bunch of people that don't understand them :pullhair:

The airplane. A P337.

I've uploaded some files for your perusal. The airplane is just a couple of knots slower than book, on the fuel burn that the book says. My guess for the speed difference is that I have more scoops than the factory airplane did. I have scoops on the front and rear for the Riley intercoolers that are not original and I have a scoop for the air conditioning that did not come from the factory. I also have a Horton STOL kit that may or may not affect cruise speed.

Interestingly, with book cruise settings (30" MP, 2400 RPM and 11.5 GPH per engine) I'm slightly LOP per the JPI engine monitor where the book says I should be at 65% power ROP. Maybe the intercoolers do that ?

My airplane is on the cover of the February 2016 Cessna Pilot's Association magazine and I have an article about the airplane in it: http://www.klrdmd.com/0216CPA.pdf

The September 2015 Aviation Consumer article about 337s; they published an E-Mail from me about my P337: http://www.klrdmd.com/AC337.pdf

The pressurization chart from the Owner's Manual. Mine makes full pressurization differential. http://www.klrdmd.com/Pressurization.pdf

Performance tables at 10,000 ft: http://www.klrdmd.com/10000.pdf

And 20,000 ft. You can interpolate for altitudes between them. http://www.klrdmd.com/20000.pdf

I've provided the basics and am happy to entertain any questions . . .

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Ken Reed
57AZ


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016, 21:59 
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Username Protected wrote:


My airplane is on the cover of the February 2016 Cessna Pilot's Association magazine and I have an article about the airplane in it: http://www.klrdmd.com/0216CPA.pdf



Ken, that is one slick looking bird!

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Chillin' CV19 in God's Waiting Room.


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2016, 21:59 
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Joined: 02/11/09
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Location: Tucson, AZ (57AZ)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:


My airplane is on the cover of the February 2016 Cessna Pilot's Association magazine and I have an article about the airplane in it: http://www.klrdmd.com/0216CPA.pdf



Ken, that is one slick looking bird!


Thank you.
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Ken Reed
57AZ


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2016, 20:05 
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Location: KHSV
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Ken-

Thanks for the write up and links. I agree: you have a very nice bird!

I had the opportunity to fly a 337 with twin IO-550s a few years back. What a blast to fly!!! Between the shape/design of Skymaster and how unique it is, I really want to own one someday. It just looks "cool," no two ways about it!

I'm still working on my 1st plane, but maybe I'll finally get a 337 for my 12th plane ;)

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Dan Brown
Yours: Bell 406, EC45, BE20, C182, H60, TEX2, H500
Mine: SR22


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 14:05 
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Location: Dallas (KADS)
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Ken-

A few questions for you-

Is your setup with the intercoolers essentially equivalent to the Riley Rocket setup with TSIO360s? If not, what is the difference between an intercooled 337 and the Riley Rocket?
Would you comment on the single engine performance assuming you loose your rear engine on climb out?
Did you consider the TSIO520 conversion? Why did you choose the 360s rather than the 520s?


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 14:07 
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Company: Gee Bee Aeroproducts
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I have all the dies for the baffle seals for this model, back in the day we mfg the ducting and seals for the TSIO550 for the Riley company in Carlsbad in Riley red color...

GB


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 14:18 
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Location: Tucson, AZ (57AZ)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:
Is your setup with the intercoolers essentially equivalent to the Riley Rocket setup with TSIO360s? If not, what is the difference between an intercooled 337 and the Riley Rocket? Would you comment on the single engine performance assuming you loose your rear engine on climb out? Did you consider the TSIO520 conversion? Why did you choose the 360s rather than the 520s?


I thought all the Riley Rockets were 520s, not 360s so I don't know the answer to your first two questions.

The single engine performance is the same regardless of the engine you lose (in the P337, not necessarily in other 336/337 models). Single engine book value at gross is 415 FPM if I recall correctly and in just about all instances my airplane makes book numbers.

Purchase price on the 520 versions are about twice as much money as the 360 versions and I simply didn't think the cost:benefit analysis favored the 520s for my needs. I would probably get a Cessna 340 if I were looking for (somewhat) small pressurized twin with 520s.

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Ken Reed
57AZ


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 14:21 
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Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:
Would you comment on the single engine performance assuming you loose your rear engine on climb out?


When you lose an engine in a P337, it behaves almost exactly like a Cessna 182 at gross weight. The "feel" is the same.

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Ken Reed
57AZ


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 15:42 
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Are your annual costs "normal" or on the low side for this airplane? I ask because I doubt that you will be able to annual any twin, including a 337, for less than $5000-$8000(maintenance costs are very high were I am) in 99% of the country. Your insurance is also very low for a twin. If you don't mind, tell us what are your hull and liability limits are? What is your payload with full fuel?


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 18:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is your setup with the intercoolers essentially equivalent to the Riley Rocket setup with TSIO360s? If not, what is the difference between an intercooled 337 and the Riley Rocket? Would you comment on the single engine performance assuming you loose your rear engine on climb out? Did you consider the TSIO520 conversion? Why did you choose the 360s rather than the 520s?


I thought all the Riley Rockets were 520s, not 360s so I don't know the answer to your first two questions.

The single engine performance is the same regardless of the engine you lose (in the P337, not necessarily in other 336/337 models). Single engine book value at gross is 415 FPM if I recall correctly and in just about all instances my airplane makes book numbers.

Purchase price on the 520 versions are about twice as much money as the 360 versions and I simply didn't think the cost:benefit analysis favored the 520s for my needs. I would probably get a Cessna 340 if I were looking for (somewhat) small pressurized twin with 520s.


It's my understanding, and I may be wrong here, that P337s weren't intercooled from the factory. Riley added the intercoolers (among other things) and created the skyrocket using the TSIO360s. Later, the super skyrocket was created using TSIO520s at 310HP. Many P337s were upgraded adding an intercooler without the Riley name.

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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 18:35 
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Location: Tucson, AZ (57AZ)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:
It's my understanding, and I may be wrong here, that P337s weren't intercooled from the factory. Riley added the intercoolers (among other things) and created the skyrocket using the TSIO360s. Later, the super skyrocket was created using TSIO520s at 310HP. Many P337s were upgraded adding an intercooler without the Riley name.


My intercoolers are Riley but I didn't know it was then called a SkyRocket. American Aviation Intercoolers are the other ones and are larger, I believe but I have no idea if that makes any difference.

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Ken Reed
57AZ


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 21:40 
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Location: Tucson, AZ (57AZ)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:
Your insurance is also very low for a twin. If you don't mind, tell us what are your hull and liability limits are? What is your payload with full fuel?


I have a PHENOMENAL insurance agent/broker who gets me amazing rates. I've referred a number of people to her and will gladly provide her contact information via PM to anyone that asks. That's why my insurance is quite reasonable.

$65k hull value (which is more than I paid for it), 1MM/$100k. Useful load (1,254 lb) isn't great with all the aftermarket stuff I have (intercoolers, air conditioning, leather interior). I have 123 gallons of usable fuel.

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Ken Reed
57AZ


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 23:45 
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very interesting and thank you for starting the thread. A few of questions:
1) what types of mods / gotchas did you find in your research that you wanted to have / check out in the airplane you bought?
2) Basically, you indicate around 138kias in cruise at 17.5 burning 23gph. Can you do that at FL230 and get 200ktas? what's a fast/high cruise/gph if you're ok in the flight levels and want to be good to your engines (good CHTs, LOP)? Is FL230 the ceiling, like in a P210?
3) how's she climb out at gross and solo, initial and in the mid-teens?
4) what kind of altitude will she hold on a single engine (I'm in Denver)?
5) Can you add flint tip tanks? I see the extended tip tanks at 38gal on their website and it appears they're available for the P338H, but I don't know if all P337's are H's? if they are, do you know if they add to altitude performance?
6) are you deiced? I assume no radar pod...

Thank you very much. For the money, this looks like a pretty great package.


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2016, 12:08 
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Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:
are you deiced? I assume no radar pod...


I don't have boots or a hot windshield, although my airplane apparently did have both at some point in the past. No RADAR pod. I fly in AZ/CA/NV & Mexico and can get by without those things.

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Ken Reed
57AZ


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 Post subject: Re: P337 Q&A Thread
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2016, 12:25 
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Nice write up, and beautiful plane.
I always liked the P337's, maybe it has something to do with my favorite airplane of all time being the P-38 Lightning.


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