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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 21:26 
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Joined: 12/12/07
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Location: Columbia, SC (KCUB)
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There is a lot I can say about Cirrus but I'll only say this. They have the most uncomfortable seats of any airplane I've ever flown. One and half hours in that seat and I'm ready to pull the chute!


I'll admit that I haven't yet flown in an A36, so I cannot fairly compare Cirrus vs. Bo on a 1.5 hr flight comparison. It sure would be helpful for an experienced BT member to show me what BO's are all about... :D


Don,

Once you cuddle you buns up to the seats in my TAT A36 you'll be hooked. We'll make it happen when I get back in the latter part of February.
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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 21:30 
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I've been running a lot of scenarios recently looking at various aircraft options and considering TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). I have been absolutely amazed at how the purchase cost has an effect on the overall equation.

When you consider the cost of capital (interest cost or opportunity cost of a potential investment) as well as depreciation costs, it has an ENORMOUS effect on the TCO. If you poop money and have no concern for such things then disregard this message. However, if TCO is of concern to you, then ignoring cost of depreciation and the cost of money while evaluating options is a HUGE mistake...


Don,

Yes, when considering the purchase costs it can have a dramatic effect on the total cost of ownership. Especially when considering new planes. I kept that separate because the primary purpose of my plane is related to work and investments I have made and it would have made the spreadsheet crazy and provided little additional value to me. Based on comments from many others they have a fixed budget and therefore again the purchase price provides little value for many.

Tim


Depreciation is a cost of operation. I don't necessarily think the cost of capital is an operating cost. If I buy a plane for 150K and sell it for 150K then I may have lost the potential interest earned which is nil in today's economy but it doesn't affect the operating cost. It may very well be a TCO but then you have to subtract the recovered capital cost when you sell.
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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 21:34 
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Username Protected wrote:

Don, two things, one you know and the other might be helpful. I spent the last fifteen years doing TCO best practices assessments for fourtune 500 companies and I clearly learned that I can make numbers say what ever I want them to say when the issues of depreciation, cost of capital are in scope. Even worse is when one considers the cost of a number of people to do a task vs a different number doing the task differently. I would say this I think you are making this airplane acquisition thing too hard. You either want it or you don't and will be running figures forever. That's my honest opinion that I'd tell you sittin at a bar. It's worth what you paid to get it, I know.

Item two that might actually be helpful is go to the American bonanza society website, look around and find what they call their ambassadors, find one close to you and call them they are there to introduce you to Beechcraft and give you a ride or two and answer all questions. Im one and if you were in Tucson I'd do it.


John,

I agree with a minor caveat. I tried to even out the variables as much as possible focused on operating costs which are much more limited in scope. My goal was not to find the cheapest, best deal, or make the numbers say what I want. My goal was to determine budget, expectations of outliers and what each step up in capability would cost.
What I found was that a certain level of capability would cost X. I sometimes found a plane with the same capability which costs 2X. That was a major point of my research. (e.g. Cessna SkyMaster seemed to be so expensive I never bothered to enter into the spreadsheet)

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 21:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
Looking at TCO takes all the fun out of flying.

:lol: I couldn't have said it better. Ain't that the truth!!!!!


Lets put it this way: TCO is important if you have to justify a plane towards the companies accountant, the BOD or any other fun-averse pencil pushers. For a privately owned aircraft, it is imho not particularly important. For a privately owned aircraft, there are two numbers:

- How much does it cost me per year to hold the keys (and how does this number relate to other numbers in my annual budget, like: putting food on the table).

- How much does it cost me to fly the next hour (fuel, oil, transfer into the savings account for the overhaul reserve).

If you use the number you get out of TCO accounting as the cost for the next hour, you'll never get off the ground.

I dont think anyone uses TCO to calculate the cost of their sailboat. You just pour money into the thing and occasionally you go sailing. You dont calculate 'per mile sailed' or 'per hour sailed' TCO cost.

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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 21:50 
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Some ways, yes; some ways, no. I've heard more than one person on here say that they viewed the chute in similar ways to viewing a second engine if you lost one at night or in IMC. The chute brings comfort.

Safety records of both the chute and the twin give liberal amounts of room for argument. With that said, both would bring me comfort at those times.
Username Protected wrote:
Going from a wholly owned 55 to a club Cirrus, 1/2 the cost sounds about right.


55 - yeah, of course, but that's apples and oranges. I am talking about A36 or V35 vs. Cirrus SR22.


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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 21:55 
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Joined: 07/20/09
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Company: Cirrus Commerical Realty
Location: FSD Sioux Falls
Aircraft: A36 PA 28&32
Interesting thread. I currently fly a number of different aircraft, but the A36 is, and always has been my favorite. A couple of years ago I flew an SR22 regularly and it was an easy, fun plane to fly, and I really liked 180 KTS at lower altitudes.

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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 22:03 
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Prior to buying my G36, I flew numerous Cirrus planes as well as Saratoga and Cessna. Main decision points came down to 6 seats, quality of construction, resale, and composite vs metal. In addition, I am one of the few I guess that thinks the best days of aviation are still ahead. We have some very smart people working on alternative engines, better avionics, safety items, etc. We simply have no real idea of what GA will look like in 2030 right now but people will continue to get tired of TSA checks, packed flights, etc. Flying IMHO is much easier than it was in the 70s with modern tech and I cannot wait to see the future GA airplanes from around the world (who says it is essential for the US will continue to lead the way???).


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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2013, 23:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
I spent 2 hours swearing in a cirrus doing something that takes 15 minutes in a beechcraft.


Charles...what was the task?


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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 00:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
I spent 2 hours swearing in a cirrus doing something that takes 15 minutes in a beechcraft.


Charles...what was the task?


Start it and taxi to his workshop :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 00:37 
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Joined: 10/30/10
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Aircraft: H35, F90, C205, C182
The Cirrus looks like a great aircraft and has raised the bar for GA. Most of us grinding over mountain IFR at night in a piston single have at least thought about the chute...it took some real pioneering to make that a certified reality.

As far as return on investment...

I can attest that you can buy an older A36, upgrade it well and fly it for 225 hours in 2 years and then sell it at a fair price...and still come out ahead on the investment.

The SR 22 has not been out long enough for a fair comparison, but I believe that would be more difficult to do in a Cirrus. They seem to be depreciating more rapidly than the Bonanza. I suspect that the ease of maintenance and quality start to take over as a big cost driver as the airframe ages.

Anyone who owns either aircraft is among the most fortunate people. I loved flying my Bonanza, but I think the Cirrus would be pretty fun as well.

Innovation: Cirrus +1

Residual value: Bonanza +1

KJ


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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 03:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Lets put it this way: TCO is important if you have to justify a plane towards the companies accountant, the BOD or any other fun-averse pencil pushers. For a privately owned aircraft, it is imho not particularly important. For a privately owned aircraft, there are two numbers:

- How much does it cost me per year to hold the keys (and how does this number relate to other numbers in my annual budget, like: putting food on the table).

- How much does it cost me to fly the next hour (fuel, oil, transfer into the savings account for the overhaul reserve).

If you use the number you get out of TCO accounting as the cost for the next hour, you'll never get off the ground.

I dont think anyone uses TCO to calculate the cost of their sailboat. You just pour money into the thing and occasionally you go sailing. You dont calculate 'per mile sailed' or 'per hour sailed' TCO cost.


... and yet, TCO is important if you are trying to figure out whether you can simply afford the plane. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 03:41 
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Username Protected wrote:
The SR 22 has not been out long enough for a fair comparison, but I believe that would be more difficult to do in a Cirrus. They seem to be depreciating more rapidly than the Bonanza. I suspect that the ease of maintenance and quality start to take over as a big cost driver as the airframe ages.


It certainly has been the case so far, but I wonder if Cirrus depreciation is going to slow down a lot once the prices hit the territory occupied by 40 years old aircraft. I can't imagine 2003 Cirrus costing less than a 1973 V35 a few years from now.


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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 05:48 
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Before I bought my Bonanza, I was almost set on buying a 2001 or 2002 SR22. $150k was about the bottom of the market then. Seems to be about the same now. Of course, then they all were about to need a chute repack, and now they have all had it done. So overall, I would say perhaps a little depreciation, but not much over 3 or 4 years.


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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 10:00 
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We bought a new G3 in 2004, and it was a great plane to fly.....went to the left coast and back a couple times, up to New England, back to Ohio State games, etc.

When the warranty ran out, taking it to the Cirrus Service Center was expensive....I imagine it's like taking a Bonanza to a Beech Service Center.

I never worried about its 12,000 airframe limit.

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 Post subject: Re: New Cirrus G5 Announcement Tomorrow
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 11:14 
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Joined: 08/13/12
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Company: Signature Builders
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Aircraft: A36 / Cirrus SR22
Very interesting thread !!!!!

Prior to buying my latest Bo I had the fortune of flying several Cirrus and even had the chance to fly #5000 which was the 5000th Cirrus built. This SR22 was decked out with every innovation you can imagine and a price tag of around 800K. At the time I flew it and after being dazzled by the so to speak "new car smell" I was convinced I was going to buy one. Not the 800K model but a nice used SR22. The plane flew great and lets face it they look like a new Mercedes on the inside. I have always been that guy that wants the new model car or truck and the latest bells and whistles. Like most BTers I am what you would call a gadget guy. At the time I was looking to purchase I was comparing the SR22 and the A36 and owned a 1967 Deb. After I pulled myself back from "the new car smell" which by the way I never do, it came down to which one flew better and I could honestly not say the 800K Cirrus flew better than the 45 year old Deb I was flying. I did not sleep for several days because how was this possible? ( did I mention it had every bell and whistle? ) and I really wanted it !!!!!! So the bottom line is even after they threw the 800K model at one of the biggest gadget guys around they still could not mask the fact that the 45 year old Bo flew better, and that Beech hit an absolute home run in 1947 when they started building these beast we call BO's. The BO is the best flying plane around and there is just nothing like them in smooth and rough air. I have a 21 year old son that is just starting his license and we flew on Tues night this week and it was absolutely the best conditions you could ask for. Temp 42 degrees and winds calm after taking off and climbing out he looked at me and said " it just does not get any better than this dad". So in the end I will take my new to me 1976 A36 with it's new car smell AIR FRESHNER, 6 seats, new paint job, ever changing panel, and most importantly great ride and stability !!!!!! I would never fault anyone for buying the Cirrus as they are a great aircraft and they came very, very, very close to getting this gadget guy to buy one but in the end I am very happy with my decision and very happy with staying with the BO.

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