Can any current or former Aerostar 601p owners share what you consider your direct operating costs to be...exclusive of fixed costs, but inclusive of reserves?

Assuming one has insurance, hangar, recurrent training, and a $5,000/yr. budget for annual already in place...what do you figure it costs to start the engines, fly for an average hour, using 65% power, and cover consumables and engine/prop/turbo depletion?

Given those parameters, and what little I know thus far, it seems $350-$400 an hour might be attainable. Am I way off-base?

For background, I'm considering a Baron 58, which I have experience in, an Aerostar 600A, and at the extreme end, a 601p or perhaps a Baron 58P. I'm still in the "information gathering" stage. A purchase is probably not imminent, but rather 3-5 months out.

Thanks,
Bryan

Bryan, here are my numbers:

Insurance, $150k hull value, Million smooth-$3400/yr
Startup, takeoff, climb to FL 210-20 gals of gas
Cruise (I cruise LOP, which to some is heresy, but it takes some work to get the Lycomings to run good LOP, and mine never did well at high power settings...) 22-24 gph, TAS 195-205, depending on altitude. LOP, TIT is limiting factor. ROP, CHT is limiting factor.
Running ROP, at FL 210 or thereabouts you'll burn 34 gph and get 230 kts TAS. Just decide how fast, how much gas you want to burn.


Engine reserves, currently a good overhaul including turbos, hoses, prop...all the stuff you need to do to get set up to run to 1800 hrs without major problems...will cost you about 50K per engine. So, figure about $55 per hour for engine/prop/turbo reserves. This will vary, obviously, depending on how many hours per year you put on the plane. (I know you know this, but if you put 40 hrs per year on the plane, you'll end up doing a lot more in between overhaul cycles than if you put 400 hours per year on it).


Those have been my numbers....please feel free to PM me if you have more questions. If you can get nearby I'll be happy to give you a ride...if you've not been in an Aerostar, I'd suggest a ride in one before you decide.

So . . .

Anything else you want to tell us, Stan?

did stan buy another aerostar

I've been meaning to ask Stan the same thing...I thought he sold his Aerostar. Not that I can blame him if he kept it . What happened?

Glenn

Yes Stan sold his Aerostar. Yes he was looking for a twin. I will let him state what he ended up with... and why.....


Tim

come on Stan, let´s hear it

Stan,

Oh, God...you yanked them out of the closet! . And some of them I know as being really nice guys, too. Tom Bush...shut the front door!! He seemed like a real stand up guy flying a real man's Baron and all. Why, he helped me enormously when I needed a gdl69..... You don't suppose it had an ignoble life in an Aerostar???

Hard to believe..

(I'm still kicking myself for at least not looking at yours before it sold...it was a real beauty......I would have stolen the fuel from somewhere)

OK, now I feel so dirty.....lusting and drooling over those Aerostars.....good thing my Baron doesn't know....

Maybe he bought a Duke?

Dave

Thanks Stan. Your numbers are pretty close to what I figured...my engine/prop/turbo reserve guess was $58/hr. I also appreciate the offer for a demo flight. I'll definitely take someone up on that offer before beginning the search in earnest for an Aerostar, if I choose that route.

It looks like if I'm willing to budget $25k/yr. for insurance, hangar, and annual, it might be realistic to have a direct operating cost + reserves and consumables somewhere between $300-$350 per hour on a 601p, depending on how fast someone wants to go. That's getting close to my current comfort zone.

Bryan

Bryan, just for comparison...I flew an Aerostar from Van Nuys to Madison MS on Monday. (1423 nm straight line, but you can't go straight line due to the White Sands Missile range...so it's a bit more). Flight was VNY to St John's AZ (SJN) to Lubbock (LBB) to Abilene (ABI) to Madison, MS (MBO). Total flight time was 6:44. Time from VNY to SJN was 1:50, from SJN to LBB was 1:43. I think LBB to ABI was about :40, don't recall for sure...from ABI to MBO was just over 2 hrs. With the exception of the LBB-ABI leg, all legs were done at either FL 210 or 230.


Fuel was 77 gals at SJN (we weren't full coming out of VNY), 79 gals at ABI, then 78 gals at MBO. I'll PM you the N number, so you can look it up on flight aware...not sure if the owner wants the N number posted on an internet forum....



let me know if you have questions...


stan

No, Dave, no Duke...but I sure wanted one. I just love how they look. Howard Pardue had one, he and I used to talk about it, just made me want one more. Howard would laugh, and say, "it's great until you have to take it to the engine shop". I figure, if Howard had pause, I should stay away.


But they are wonderful planes, the Dukes....

Hey Kevin, glad I could be of help discussing the GDL69...that is what I enjoy about Beechtalk.com...pilots/owners helping pilots/owners! Stan, like your idea of a "sub Aerostar forum" to share our experiences.

Yes I "defected" to Aerostar camp...only have about 100 hours in the 601P/Superstar 700 (350 hp, low compression engines) but certainly enjoying the plane so far. Here are some highlights (note: still getting my "k-factor" tuned in on the JPI so fuel flows may be off a little bit, but each time I do a new k-factor calculation the fuel flow edges down a bit):

Climb @ approx. 153 KIAS and get 1,800 fpm (full rich/42"/2500 rpm, 80 gph)
" 170 KIAS 1,000 fpm ". These climb speeds work out to about 200 KTAS+...WOW!

Still sneaking up on fast cruise speeds, but at 17,500' @ 45 gph = 240 KTAS. Was doing a post maintenance flight in Billings, MT airspace, criss crossing the airspace talking with Billings tower and when I requested to come back and land I was out about 40 miles west of the field they gave me a straight in for for 10L so I pushed the nose over to 215 KIAS (top of the green...top of the yellow is 248 KIAS and as Jim Christy stated the VMO on the jet is targeted
@ 260 KIAS) and was doing about 290 across the ground...Billings approach asked me to "slow down for the regional jet"...I said "please say again"...just wanted to "confirm" I heard the transmission correctly! (would insert a smiley face here if I knew how to do it).

At about 50% power @ FL 230, 208 KTAS on 25 gph, 152 KIAS. Need to see if I can duplicate Stan's LOP low power settings on his high compression engines...if my high compression engines will run smoothly LOP at these low power settings. Stan, guessing you indicated airspeed is about 138 - 140 KIAS when you are getting 194 - 205 KTAS on 22-24 gph?...and assuming FL230? May I ask what MP and RPM at those very efficient fuel flows?

Initial fuel burn observations. If I do a max power climb then throttle back to 50% power (25 gph) out here in the rocky mountains, I find that I burn about the same fuel block to block as I did in my NA Baron as I can cut off about 7-10%+ of the mileage to my destination by being able to fly direct over the high terrain...and of course my block to block time is faster.
Even flying east over flat terrain, if tailwinds increase by 2 knots per thousand and I fly at FL230 in the Aerostar vs. 11,000' in the NA baron, the fuel burn is only slightly more in the Aerostar. On a trip from KSHR, Sheridan, WY to KFKS, Frankfort, MI, (Traverse City area), 899 NM http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N831 ... /KSHR/KFKS the Aerostar took 4:11 according to Flightaware, I averaged 32 gph for a total fuel burn of 130 gallons, whereas the NA Baron flown LOP at 2300 rpm, wide open throttle, 11,000', 23 gph in cruise and 24 gph block to block would have taken 5 hours for a total fuel burn of 120 gallons (assuming no deviations for MOAs along the way, etc.)...so for 10 gallons more I arrived about 39 minutes faster above the clouds in pressurized comfort and my Baron would have put me in the clouds and some moderate turbulence that day for about 70% of the trip. Heading eastbound into headwinds over flat terrain (where both the Baron and the Aerostar would have to fly the same mileage) the NA B58 would definitely have a fuel burn advantage. I am estimating that total fuel for 100 hours of flight will cost me about $3,000 more per year than the NA B58 as I fly the rockies a lot.

Accelerate/stop is about 500' longer in the Aerostar than the Baron...that said, at about 400 lbs. under gross, the Aerostar comfortably handles a 3,500' strip at 1000 agl @ 15C (assuming no obstructions). Landing gear is strong and handle a sand/clay strip without a problem. Aussies appear to fly Aerostars into a lot of dirt strips.

The 350 hp engines allow you to maintain altitude (or climb depending on conditions) after losing an engine at takeoff with the gear down, flaps down and prop windmilling...you do not have to have the reactions of a 25 year old to "do the engine out drill" in 6 seconds after
losing the engine....take your time. Cleaned up you can expect a 500 fpm climb.

The completely flat floor is great for removing seats (easy...and seat rails run the entire length of the cabin for locating seats where you like) for loading up hunting/fishing buddies/dogs. I do wish I had a nose baggage compartment like the B58 (trade offs with every plane) but find that if I fly with just 4 seats instead of 6 seats I have plenty of room in the pressurized cabin to carry fishing gear, food for fishing camp and four guys (including the pilot) averaging 200 lbs each + 50 lbs of fishing gear each +
150 lbs of other stuff an 100 gallons of fuel (with the gross weight increase option, useful load goes from 1,750 lbs to 2,250 lbs. so I may consider this option). You will run out of space before you run out of payload with the gross weight increase.

Thus far parts have been no issue at all and parts prices are "reasonable" vs. what I was used to paying for parts for the NA B58 or my 58P. Aerostar Aircraft in Coeur d'Alene, ID still produces parts at their factory...vs. other manufacturers no longer producing parts.

Definitely and "airspeed control" airplane as the plane feels the same at 110 KIAS as it does at 175 KIAS...must be watchful of speed in the pattern as speed drops off fast...and you cannot "lift the nose" to "stretch" your landing point...must fly it on. That said, POH lists landing ground roll at about 1,400' to 1,800' with a touch down speed of 86 KIAS (dirty stall is 79 KIAS) and feels very stable at that speed.

The mini airstair door makes loading "older" folks (and I am becoming one of them and still confused how "that" happened!) much easier. Cabin is a few inches wider than the B58 and stays the same width the entire length of the cabin instead of narrowing down. With four seats in the plane everyone enjoys a lot of leg room. With six seats in your passengers will feel like they have the same limited leg room as flying in the cheap coach seats on the airlines. CG is not a problem when loading 4 folks and baggage and with the mid-wing design, the plane does not attempt to do a "tail stand"...in fact, the plane doesn't seem to know you are loading the plane to max gross as the plane does not "move" at all as you load the weight into the plane. The 50 thousands thick aluminum skins make the plane feel very solid (hear that most planes are constructed of 20 - 25 thousands thick skins).

Have been sneaking up on stronger and stronger crosswind componets (with 2,000+ hours in Barons, handling 30 knot crosswinds...I live in Wyoming so I get a lot of crosswind practice...was not a problem as you Baron drivers can attest) and recently landed in wind reported @ 22 gusting to 42 and 80 degrees off the runway heading...the Aerostar handled the crosswind componet by adding very little differential thrust (no way to tell exactly how much crosswind componet at the time of the landing as only AWOS info. available and I rarely trust in AWOS info.). There is plenty of rudder/aileron authority to handle a lot of crosswind. Not trying to set a "cross wind record" here...just trying to learn about the airplane and my limitations and was spring loaded to go around! With about 100 hours of time in the plane, I am starting to get a "Baron comfort zone" with the plane and that comfort zone will increase next month when I do recurrent training with a guy who has over 17,000 hours of Aerostar time. Looking forward to that training/learning experience.

The plane handles moderate+ turbulence very well with no need for a YD as no discernible
tail wag...rear seat passengers sit almost on top of the mid-wing design and tell me the ride is "better" than in the Barons (of course I have never flown in the rear seats of the Baron or the Aerostar so I am trusting in what the passengers "feel").

Well that is enough rambling for now. Hopefully other Aerostar owners with more time than I have will add their comments. Stan, glad you bought another Aerostar as I have enjoyed our numerous conversations about the pros/cons of different twins and look forward to hearing about your Aerostar experiences!

Tom (former Beech guy...TN A36 with tips and FIKI TKS, B58, B55 and 58P). Don't know what I will own next and can't stop looking!

Tom, nice summary. Yes, I'm getting about 140 indicated, LOP at 2300 rpm, 24 inches MP, temps all nice and cool at FL 210-230. Gets me between 195 and 205 TAS on 22-24 gph.



(I'm trying not to get in trouble with the guys who want us to only talk bout Beeches here...but I'm really happy with my AEST)