You can think of this discussion along the sames line of the thread I recently began regarding the Malibu. I believe I've talked myself out of the Malibu regarding operational and mx considerations based on excellent feedback from fellow BTers. However the 'Toga remains on my list of contenders for potential aircraft.

Please understand that I'm not trying to talk myself out of a Bo but am just trying to be as thorough as I possibly can. I gave up being an Aero Engineer many, many moons ago but the analytical nature in me remains in many forms...

This will be a partnership a/c with 2-4 partners and my personal mission will be a mix of business and family trips. Business missions are out/back same day (~600nm max) and family trips will be generally less than 400nm with myself, wife, 9 year old daughter and 5 year old boy. The family missions will be couple days at the most but they are far from light packers.

Minimum list includes a modern (less than 10 yr old) 6 seater, FIKI, some glass (GNS430W/GNS530W min, G600/GTN750 preferred), weather and traffic. A nice roomy interior is very attractive for the family missions and fast cruise is attractive for the business missions. Most of the travel will be in the eastern US, so not much mountain flying expected. The budget will likely be in the $400K-$500K range.

The A36/G36 is hard to beat for sure. The Saratoga IIHP is on the list as it can meet most of the criteria and appears to have a roomier cabin. I've flown a Cherokee 6 before and assume the 'Toga is similar with more power and better performance.

Based on my impressions thus far, the pros of the Saratoga seem to be: roomier cabin, potential of moving between cockpit and cabin during flight (if console not installed) and roomier cockpit. The cons include: 'cheaper' looking interior, (4) separate fuel tanks (I REALLY don't like complex fuel systems since most of my time thus far are in Cessnas) and what I think will end up being slightly lower cruise speed compared to Bo (can't confirm this).

I know someone who owned a modern Saratoga IITC with similar missions to mine and was very happy with it overall.

The one feature that I think is a negative to the Bo is the inability to move between the cockpit and cabin in flight. It may not end up being a big deal but I'm sure my wife may like the ability to sit with the kids for a period of the flight which could be done in the 'Toga if the console wasn't installed.

Again, I would prefer this not be a Piper v. Beech thread but to hear from those who currently own A36 / G36 and considered a Saratoga II before making their decision.

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

I owned a PA32 (Six) same cabin as the Toga.....I'd not even consider moving from the cockpit to the back. It's possible....but not recommended. IMHO

Both aircraft are going to have complex fuel systems....when moving up from the Cessna...just about all aircraft have more than a left and a right tank.

The only thing I miss from my PA32 going to my V35A TC.....is the cabin room. The PA32 is about 5-6" wider. The biggest differences I've noticed are from the cockpit....and the details of the Bo are slightly nicer. I'd still own another PA-32 it the need arises.

The extra speed is nice....but only realized on long....long trips. Not so much difference on short $100 burger runs. The Bo might get you to your destination 25-30 min earlier than the Toga....not sure that makes a huge difference.

My advice would be to make the decision.....without your wife sitting in the PA-32. Those last two seats in the PA32 are really big compared with the rear two in the 36.

Rick, what are your missions? Family on board? What caused you to go from the 6 to V35?

I recall the 6 being a 130kt machine at best. Big but slow. I don't have much interest in going 130kts anymore. If I'm going to throw a lot more $$ down, I'd like more performance. On my longest missions, 130kts up to 165 kts will make a 1 hr difference one way or 2 hrs round trip. That's certainly a big factor for me.

The Toga IITC and A36 seem pretty evenly matched on cruise performance - maybe an edge to the Bo but I haven't flown one yet to be sure.

I didn't need the room....and wanted more speed. That was my reason for "down" grading....so I told my wife....and the wife doesn't fly.

The TC Toga is a 155-160kt aircraft.....and closely matched with the A36. The biggest difference I can tell is the cabin interior. (my six would do 140kts) The Bo handles slightly better...but not as easy to trim.

Unless you are flying really long missions.....greater than 3-4 hrs....the speed wouldn't be a big deal for me.

Don, I considered the Saratoga before buying a 36 this past December. I did all my PP training in Cherokees, so I was initially leaning towards the Saratoga, chiefly due to cockpit familiarization. Being an engineer by trade, I did all the analytical comparisons. Entry cost. Maintenance costs. Useful load. CG envelopes. Cruising speeds. Resale value. Accident history. Insurance costs. etc.

Then I flew my friend's Vtail.

Game over for the Saratoga.

I didn't get 300' AGL on maiden flight and my quest to own a Bonanza (my mission dictated a 36 over the Vtail - at least for now) started.

You know how the Piper flies. My question is have you flown a Bonanza? If not, you simply must fly one before you make this decision. I'm guessing after you do, your decision will be easy.

Good luck.

I was wrenching on a 1998 Saratoga II TC and was mentioning to another mechanic about how much I liked the interior of the late model saratogas. Not as straight foreward for running avionics like a beech but still pretty nice. I am currently flying a Dakota, a Saratoga would be a nice step up.

I also learned that you really have to watch the cable pulleys in the wings as they are not "bearing" pulleys but "bushing" pulleys, when they sieze up due to dirt they really eat the aileron cables. Piper also used some crappy cables in their airplanes that seem to be soft and wear out rapidly.

Flew them all, Saratoga / Seneca flys like the box it came in.

Baron and Bonanza are pilot aircraft, its like comparing a BMW to an Oldsmobile.

Flying qualities are certainly a big factor and nothing you can get by reading any brochure or article. I haven't flown a Bo yet, so I don't have a reference but everyone I spoke to who's flown one have loved them.

I'll likely put off flying one as long as possible cuz I'll probably fall in love at that point. All perspective and logic fly out the window once you fall in love and the $$ evaporates. That happened to me twice: first when I married my wife and 2nd when I bought my last car. The car cost me BUNCHES but pales in comparison to the wife...

I heard all the Bonanza advocates say how well it flew. Then I finally flew one. Wow. It isn't flying in the same sense that one experiences operating Pipers. The Bonanza is a finely engineering machine, which senses what you're feeling, and responds.

I was looking at 210s. I am ashamed to say the video of the landing gear retraction comparison influenced me to spend more for a Bo. Ignoring the fact that in a 100 knot slipstream, the 210 gear retraction probably looks elegant. The choice basically went from rational to emotional.

Toga has the advantage of that extra baggage compartment forward. Cabin is a bit quiter as a result. OTOH I have no problem cramming a bunch of stuff behind the pilot and 2nd row seats so the extra space was a non issue for me. Piper flies like a piper. Bo flies like a dream. As others have said, Bo is a pilots's plane. As for moving forward and back, that really doesn't happen very often during a flight, right? When someone in front wants to go in back they just climb over. If the ease of moving during a flight is the big issue for you, then it's game over and Bo wins hands down IMHO.

I won't bash the Saratoga, it's definitely has a wider cabin, it's much wider at the back two seats, and it does have the nose baggage compartment and standard fuel is 102 gallons...but it is an 'old man's airplane, flies like a friggin dump truck, it's slow and has a penchant for getting it's nose up on an approach and becoming unstable. Other than that it a pretty good airplane for a Piper. You fly the Bonanza just once and you'll 'throw rocks' at the Saratoga.

We bought a 2008 Saratoga TC G1000.....

I see 23 to 24 GPH at 7-8,000 feet at 34" X 2400 prop rpm. We see between 170 and 175kts true. Our airplane is a fat pig to put it mildly. With TKS and airconditioning we are about at gross with full fuel and pilot - co-pilot. So useful load is terrible (in our airplane with the options installed).

No question the cabin is extremely comfortable ...wide in front and roomy in back.

Hindsight what it is ... i would rather be a little tighter fit and flying the G36.

Someone put it perfectly in an earlier post - the Saratoga is an Oldsmobile (not much ramp appeal...big roomy comfortable ride)....and the G36 is a BMW (tight handling...responsive and a performer)

I think the A36 has more headroom in seats 5 and 6 based on my flights in both models.

Tom, that is one very surprising review given the investment you must've made. I guess feedback such as yours is what causes me to be so thorough in looking at all the various options.

Thanks very much for your candor and honesty.

My take thus far is that if you're in the back, you'd be picking the 'Toga and if you're the one in the front left seat, the Bo is your first choice.

Since in this case, the guys in the front left seat are writing the checks, if what you all say is true, it's apparent which way I'll be leaning...

My opinion is based on about 800 hrs of operational experience in the TC ...