Thanks for the very good questions Leif!


As far as turbines go the short answer is almost all of them. Anything that is current production, especially later model airplanes are continuing to go up in value.

This won't end until production increases to meet demand or some external force drives values down.

Thread drift-sorry! What is the deal on the Wheels UP airplanes? Just high time, or used, abused, and perhaps maintenance showing up in pre-buy?

Takeoff, CJ3+, MGTOW, 0 MSL, no wind, 35 C, flaps 15:

Dry: 3690 ft

Wet: 4090 ft

1/8" standing water: 10,800 ft

Temp 0 C:

1/8" slush: 7950 ft

Snow 1 inch: 6150 ft

Compact snow: 6350 ft

Wet ice: off the chart, > 16,000 ft.

It isn't runway length so much as runway condition that matters.

Mike C.

One thing I've learned lurking on the Phenom Pilots board is that Embraer has minimum parts inventory/stock agreements on some parts with big fractional operators such as FlexJet that run dozens of Phenom 300s. There are times these agreements leave an AOG owner/operator with a need for a higher-demand/low inventory part out in the cold, with Embraer taking the position of "we have the part, but we're not allowed to release it until we're above minimum stock per our agreement with ______".

Takeoff, CJ3+, MGTOW, 0 MSL, no wind, 35 C, flaps 15:

Dry: 3690 ft

Wet: 4090 ft

1/8" standing water: 10,800 ft

Temp 0 C:

1/8" slush: 7950 ft

Snow 1 inch: 6150 ft

Compact snow: 6350 ft

Wet ice: off the chart, > 16,000 ft.

It isn't runway length so much as runway condition that matters.

Mike C.

One thing I've learned lurking on the Phenom Pilots board is that Embraer has minimum parts inventory/stock agreements on some parts with big fractional operators such as FlexJet that run dozens of Phenom 300s. There are times these agreements leave an AOG owner/operator with a need for a higher-demand/low inventory part out in the cold, with Embraer taking the position of "we have the part, but we're not allowed to release it until we're above minimum stock per our agreement with ______".

Total time became the key differentiator. When so many aircraft hit the market at once, values were inevitably pressured for a period of time. We’ve now emerged from that downturn in a way I didn’t initially anticipate, the market has clearly split.

Today, there are effectively two separate markets: the former Wheels Up (WU) aircraft, and the higher-pedigree airplanes. There is now a very limited number of truly high-pedigree King Air 350i’s remaining.

Once buyers recognized just how scarce those aircraft had become, a buying surge followed, and prices rebounded quickly. As a result, top-tier 350i values have returned to pre-Wheels Up sell-off levels.

The WU airplanes aren’t bad airplanes, they have recent cosmetics and maintenance. I’m real picky about logbooks and like most 135 airplanes, there’s are an intentional mess… but even that has created an opportunity, our sister company www.vaultlogs.com just finished overhauling our first set of WU records. We turned ten big tubs of paper and binders into two Pelican cases of organized records! Not to mention digital access.

It’s a labor intensive process, cost about $15k but increases the value of the airplane by at least $50k! Plus, you don’t need a forklift to move the records!

Takeoff, CJ3+, MGTOW, 0 MSL, no wind, 35 C, flaps 15:

Dry: 3690 ft

Wet: 4090 ft

1/8" standing water: 10,800 ft

Temp 0 C:

1/8" slush: 7950 ft

Snow 1 inch: 6150 ft

Compact snow: 6350 ft

Wet ice: off the chart, > 16,000 ft.

It isn't runway length so much as runway condition that matters.

Mike C.

Weird someone from TN asks this given the propensity for that state to have ice storms. I recall landing a KMQY Smyrna in the MU2 when the place was covered in 2 inches of solid ice. On that huge east ramp, I split the throttles, one side beta other side alpha, to do an in place pirouette. Was fun. Only jets with TRs were landing that day, we landed after a 550.

Non TR equipped planes would have been grounded for 10 days when I wasn't following an ice storm Jan this year. They would have had to wait until it melted off, canceling their trip plans. Ice storms tend to coat everything with ice and then it gets cold for days afterward.



Wet runways happen a lot. Landing in rain happens some (standing water is as bad as ice). Snow and ice less often, but enough that I notice. Dependency purely on brakes reduces dispatch reliability.

On dry runways, TRs provide backup in case the brakes fail. I sometimes deliberately land not using brakes at all.



This will never work on a CJ.

I'd say TRs affect my go, no go decision about 3-4 times per year. Without TRs, I'd be more likely to move my airplane to KEVV which would add $25-30K in costs per year. They easily pay for themselves in brake and tire wear, and in airport options.


An example of cost over function.

The TRs essentially allow me access to runways and conditions that used to require a turboprop. My V can go pretty much anywhere my MU2 used to go, as long as the runway is paved.

Early CJ and CJ2 had thrust attenuators, a kind of wimpy TR.

Mike C.

There are a bunch of King Airs piling up at KICT. They look like former WU airplanes.


They have mostly showed up in the last year.

Mike C.

There goes Chip, shilling his businesses again..........

There are a bunch of King Airs piling up at KICT. They look like former WU airplanes.


They have mostly showed up in the last year.

Mike C.

When it was announced that WU was in trouble and would liquidate their King Airs, it sent a shock through the market, but it has really been a slow trickle of airplanes over the last couple of years, the photos above are at YingLing's facility at ICT. Just an example of airplanes that are going from storage, to maintenance and then to paint and interior. It's a lengthy process with multiple parties between Wheels Up Partners and the end user. As I mentioned, we now have two unique King Air 350i markets, one with low time part 91 aircraft and the other with higher time part 135 airplanes.

Tell me you don't know what an attenuator does, without telling me you don't know what an attenuator does.

The KMQY storm was 2015:

https://www.weather.gov/ohx/20150221#:~ ... %20Plateau.

It shutdown KBNA (Nashville) for 4 days so even the airlines weren't an option. I was doing MU2 training, so we flew off the ice for 3 days and it was turboprops and legacy TR equipped Citations using the airport.

The storm near here was Jan this year. This was my street:



You will. A major ice storm happens about every 5 to 10 years in the Nashville area. A lesser storm will ground non TR planes more often. Non airline airports don't have the equipment to keep the runway ice free, and even airline airports can't do it for every storm.

While an ice storm is news, the most common concern is moderate to heavy rain, especially in summer where it is unpredictable and localized. Pilots don't realize how bad braking is on standing water, and grooved runways are rare outside airline airports.

Mike C.