Those would water my eyes and I own a Citation.

Is this at a service center?

Mike C.

Thanks Chip - I looked at an 850 in the 1.7 range with a timed out engine which is 500k less than some 850's that have 1000 hours left on them. I'm not a huge fan of engine programs unless the math makes sense but I think a 1M engine on a 2M or 2.5M plane is hard for people to plan for. I think we're going to go in another direction, I appreciate the Pireps.






I would expect at least $800k but right now it is impossible to predict. We just finished a -67 for a PC12 that went north of $1M

Unless, something changed recently, there is no M.O.R.E. Program for the -64 engine. You can buy the STC from M.O.R.E. and get it approved by your FSDO, but it is individual and will not transfer.

You can do the HSI and operate past TBO, as long as it will not be 135, and this makes more sense than the M.O.R.E.

Be warned that big Pratts don't seem to hold up as well as the smaller ones that were approved for the M.O.R.E.

You could be flying a Citation for that kind of money.

Versus a 501, the TBM wins a bit on range, but misses on just about everything else such as speed, safety, comfort, quiet, etc. A 550 is more range than a TBM, larger cabin, but does require SPE for single pilot ops. Put passengers in a TBM and a 500 series Citation, and ask which they prefer. The choice will be very clear.

I can't afford a TBM. I fly a Citation V.

Sounds like older TBMs are entering the "HSI only and fly past TBO" operating strategy now, similar to many Citations. The big block PT6 is horrifically expensive to OH for some reason.

Mike C.

You could be flying a Citation for that kind of money.

Chip what’s the acquisition cost of a Mustang?

$1.5-2.5M.

It is a lot of money for an airplane isolated in its own small ecosystem, shares virtually nothing with 500 or 525 series.

Mike C.

Yes, a Citation Mustang.
…
At similar (and likely) lower operating cost.

My strong suspicion is monopoly pricing… they control the overhaul ecosystem.

I haven't owned a TBM, but did own a Mustang from 2018-2022. On ProParts and PowerAdvantage+, ~200 hours/year, including mx, hangar, insurance, fuel, type rating, 61.58 (everything but depreciation, actually sold it for $350,000 more than acquisition, so that would reduce hourly cost if incorporated) it was very close to $1,500/hour each of the 4 years. That includes some discretionary maintenance like paint and NXi upgrade. I had 1 AOG event in 4 years and ~800 hours (oil pressure sensor). It would cruise at 330 plus or minus ISA.

I cannot afford a newer jet yet. I have owned my C501 for year. I bought it for $800k. It has a beautiful glass panel and lots of time remaining on the engines. I have flown it 150 hours. First year of insurance was $35,000. Second year was $23,000. Initial type cert was $14k. First year catch up maintenance items have been an air conditioning compressor, two oil pumps, and two fuel control units. Even with all of that, my cost has been a fraction of the expense of a TBM850. I can fly higher and further and carry more people and luggage.

I considered a turboprop for a long time but so far I'm happy I didn't go that route. I know it's an old slow jet and it's not for everybody, but to me the value is tremendous. It does burn a lot of gas!

Had you bought a TBM for, say, $2.2M a year ago, that would be $1.4M more invested in the TBM than the 501.

Instead, buy the 501, and put $1.4M in an SP500 ETF. Total return in the last year was about 14% (equity and dividends). That's $196,000 in investment returns.

That pays for a LOT of fuel, like over 300 hours of a 501!

The TBM has more downside risk, likely to cost much more in insurance due to higher hull value if nothing else, and may cost a lot more in taxes depending on the property tax applied to aircraft in your area.

Capex is an opex, you just don't "see" it openly.

Mike C.

My strong suspicion is monopoly pricing… they control the overhaul ecosystem.

Handling fees are usually never paid, you buy fuel and it gets waived.

Retail fuel prices are usually never paid, you have contract or program fuel. Signature has the Bravo fuel program now which makes using them more realistic.


The jet can have lower TCO, total cost of ownership.

If you buy the plane, fly a collection of missions for a few years, and then sell, I believe the jet owner can be lower TCO. They will certainly have a better experience overall, IMO.

Mike C.

I would love a 501, but for me it would cost more.

I paid $1.6m for my 700C2 3 years ago (my first one was with a partner, this one is all mine).

The cost of capital for an $800K cheaper plane is about equal to the extra fuel burn. And I would need to change airport and that would boost hangar cost by $2K/month

Add in additional training every year and it costs quite a bit more.

My maint experience has been very different than others. I maintain it myself and have averaged maybe $4K a year in parts. 7 weeks total man hours spent in the last 3 years doing maint, and that includes 10 year gear inspection. I did spend $5k the first year for special tooling.

Terry - that cannot be true! You cannot possibly have operated a non-old citation affordably!!!!


Having looked at the old jets many, many times, I will say that the fuel burn on them can really put a thumb on the scale as can hangar requirements.

For example - when I looked at an Ultra, it cost about the same to acquire as what I bought but at 200 hours per year, I couldn't use the low cost main programs and the fuel bills and additional hangar costs were tremendous where I was based. I have to go back and look, but somewhere around 100 hours the cost of fuel just took over. I have been buying jetA since 2016 and while I do find cheap stuff when shopping for refueling stops, most places I go it's pricey. Both my home base and the main field I fly to in PA are not cheap.

Going back to the original post - I have been told most 135 operators of big block PT6s find ways to extend the TBO. I think hot section and go one more interval is likely the best bang for ones buck in -91 land. That is my plan with the Piaggio.