The single biggest issue is picking the wrong shop. An owner contacted us over the weekend. Legacy Citation, nice plane, no major squawks.

Scope of work: Phase 1-5. No upgrades. No avionics.

Final invoice: $179,913.58

so, what does a Phase I-V cost, with an involved owner, at one of the shops like Tarver's (not asking for his rates, but just one of the "friendly" shops).

I paid $58K, and I'd say about 2/3 of that was various inspections (not just 1-5), and the remainder was discretionary squawks we wanted fixed, including a door lock, pilot & co-pilot seat re-upholstering, etc.

Oh, it was highway robbery.

We just did a Phase 1-5 on a family member's 560. The bill was a nepotistic $31,500 including normal parts and squawks. Our overhead is low and profit margins vary greatly by shop but even if you doubled this, it is very reasonable to operate a jet that only needs this major inspection combo every 6 years.

I stand behind my rolling average of $25K in maintenance to fly a legacy Citation.

I just did phase 1-5 plus a host of other inspections on my V, will report when the financial dust settles.

Under $50K with squawks addressed is my estimate.

Mike C.

I did a 1-4 back in 2023 (1-5 due next year) and it was $17k. Only corrective actions were $2,200 for removing and repainting some spots of corrosion, replacing some 3" ducting, a couple peri seals in the bleed air system, and some Skydrol (hydraulic fluid). Now this was an owner-involved inspection - I did some of the grunt work like removing the forward/aft baggage panels, floor panels, reinstalling various panels and things after inspection, etc. But still that likely saved a few hours of labor, and I added some time as I had him do things like borescope to verify that I have the metal outflow valve doors, etc.

All that to say, I expect my 1-5 to be $50k.

At my place we charge $9,500 for a phase 1-4 and $19,500 for a phase 5. I think that is very reasonable.

Where the total bill goes from there is really dependent on the type of owner I am working with. Mike Ciholis and Chris Leach strike me as owners who dote on their airplanes and fix problems as they come up. My guess is their phase inspections would be very affordable.

This seems a good time to ask if anyone can help with some maintenance information. Specifically I'm looking to compare the Textron LUMP program with the Bacon one.

Does anyone have:
1. the manufacturers phase inspection requirements (can be high level)
2. Textron LUMP schedule
3. Bacon LUMP schedule

I also understand (please correct me if wrong) that Bacon pricing includes FAA approval whereas Textron is just the paper and you need to get your own approvals?

Feel free to PM me or provide only parts of the above - trying to build a complete picture.

Thanks
Richard

TLDR: you want the Textron one for lower cost, less complexity, no FAA approval needed, better intervals, and relief from mandatory overhauls.

The standard inspection program (for my Citation V, models vary) is published by Textron in chapter 5 of the MM and is available to operators at no cost. There are a number of options on how to complete the schedule, but the most common (called "Method 3" in the MM) is to group phase 1-4, phase 1-5, and a phase B. The intervals are:

Phase B: 150 hours (between phase 1-4)
Phase 1-4: 300 hours, 2 years
Phase 1-5: 1200 hours, 3 years

Phase B is a minor inspection for just those items which can't go more than 150 hours, so the basic inspections are really phase 1-4 and phase 1-5. Under the stock plan, you are in a fairly heavy inspection 2 out of 3 years.

You are by default on the stock plan unless you select something else. You can make this explicit by selecting the stock plan in the aircraft records which locks in your MM revision (a good idea in case Textron updates the MM with some onerous inspection, you aren't required to do it unless it is an AD or they change chapter 4 on life limited parts).

The Textron LUMP (low utilization maintenance program) is a special program provided by Textron for which they charge a fee. I paid $6K in 2020 for mine, but I hear it has gone up some in recent years. Textron issues the LUMP at their whim and could decide not to offer it to you. They have refused to offer it for FJ44 converted airframes, for example. Once you are on the program, they can't rescind it, however.

The Textron LUMP changes the intervals as follows:

Phase B: 225 hours (between phase 1-4)
Phase 1-4: 450 hours, 3 years
Phase 1-5: 1200 hours, 6 years

My LUMP is limited to "200 hours per year" usage, though it is not defined what happens if you cross that boundary, so I'm not sure a 210 hour year really causes any problems. It is also not defined how you measure a year, is that Jan 1 to Dec 31, or some other interval?

For someone who operates around 150 hours/year, the LUMP is basically perfect. You end up doing phase 1-4 every 3 years, phase 1-5 every 6 years, and the minor phase B in the mid gaps. You are tearing the plane apart only 1 of 3 years. This is a huge reduction in costs and wear on the airplane, plus a great reduction in MIF (maintenance induced failure) potential.

Since Textron, the OEM, is offering the LUMP, and thus falls under 91.409(f)(3), you do NOT need FAA approval for the plan. You merely need the LUMP letter (mine was 2 pages, very simple) from Textron, select it in your aircraft records, and you are good to go. I had my LUMP letter from Textron 1 business day after I bought the airplane (bought on Saturday, had LUMP letter Monday).

The Bacon LUIP (low utilization inspection program) is nominally similar to the Textron LUMP but with some significant differences. The program was $20-$22K when I asked in 2020, probably more now. It used to not have a yearly fee, but Bacon monetized that some years ago to generate recurring revenue, and in 2020, that fee was $1250/year. You also have a reporting requirement to Bacon every year for any discrepancies. Textron has no yearly fee and no reporting requirements.

The Bacon program can work for significantly modified airplanes that Textron doesn't cover, such as the FJ44 conversions. As far as I know, that's the only mod Textron has disallowed, but again, Textron can change their minds at any time.

The Bacon phases are more complex. Instead of just pushing the intervals, they split up the phases into the following (based on an example tracking status report from another Citation V):

Phase 1A: 300 hours, 2 years
Phase 1B: 300 hours, 3 years
Phase 2A: 300 hours, 2 years
Phase 2B: 300 hours, 3 years
(there is no phase 3A, apparently)
Phase 3B: 300 hours, 3 years
Phase 4A: 300 hours, 2 years
Phase 4B: 300 hours, 3 years
Phase 5A: 1200 hours, 3 years
Phase 5B: 1200 hours, 6 years
Phase 5C: 1200 hours, 6 years

If you fly 150 hours/year, the Bacon LUIP has you in phase 1-4 every 2 years, not 3 like Textron. It also has these annoying "A" phases which are not extended, while the Textron plan extends ALL tasks in the inspection.

The Bacon program falls under 91.409(f)(4) and thus requires "FAA" approval. Bacon says they have ODA (organization designation authorization) which possibly means Bacon can approve plans under the ODA as if the FAA did approve them, so perhaps this isn't a large barrier. I've not been through the Bacon process, but it can't be easier than than Textron's LUMP.


Nope, Textron is an OEM inspection program, so once you get the LUMP letter (mine is attached), all you need to do is select it in the aircraft records. That is just an entry along the lines of "I, <name> operator of <tail/serial> select the Textron LUMP inspection program as detailed in the attached letter referencing the inspection programs that are current as of this date.".

One last thing: the Bacon program, under 91.409(f)(4), makes any included overhaul requirements mandatory. That is because the Bacon program falls under this AC since it is not provided by the OEM:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 91-90_.pdf

In particular:

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/med ... 00.410.pdf

"While scheduled items of maintenance (other than inspections) are not required to be included in the inspection program, they become mandatory if the operator chooses to include them in an Approved Inspection Program (AIP), such as one developed under § 91.409(f)(4)."

Since the Bacon program incorporates the stock inspection program by reference (it is not a complete stand alone program), and the stock program defines overhaul intervals, the Bacon program can cause overhauls to be mandatory if they don't explicitly exclude that in some way.

Since the Textron program is by the OEM, and fall sunder 91.409(f)(3), overhauls are not mandatory for part 91 operators.

This is a subtle and non obvious benefit with the Textron program.

Mike C.

I heard that the Textron LUMP is now up to $9k.

Thanks Mike - that's really useful info.

My recent investigations for Citation II have Textron at $9500 and a max 150 hours annually (they said they could on a case by case basis possibly grant 15 hours additional as a one off - they also confirmed "anually" is program start date to 1 year later - no rolling or averages allowed). Textron also said it's owner-by-owner (so not transferable) and confirmed they won't do the Williams / Eagle conversions. Bacon quoted $25,000 based on "expected use" of 200 hours with no mention of ongoing - but doesn't care which engines/STCs have been used. Bacon still requires FAA approval but I think it's pretty much a box ticking exercise.

I'm trying to establish if my local version of the FAA will accept Textron in the same way FAA does (it technically requires 'approval' to change a "system of maintenance" but that should be a box tick only if its an OEM system). I'm also considering a Citation II that would have some charter work available so need to see if being Part 135 would change anything so far as using a LUMP would go (and that may be irrelevant if there is a hard 150 hour max).

Final query - does anyone use JSSI for insuring their JTDs? They will provide a similar (they argue much better) program to Williams for what is a similar price but they also have a alternative program which effectively only insures you against unplanned events (i.e the nasty bill shock events such as FOD or a cooked start). Its paid as an annual fee based on estimated usage. Didn't get meaningful pricing on that but it seems an interesting crossover between the Tarver/Chiolas camp vs the Williams fans.

Regards
Richard

Sounds like they are starting to remove ambiguities and close loopholes.

150 hours of a Citation per year is a lot of miles, about 65,000 miles. Does the LUMP specify what happens when you fly 150.1 hours? Honestly, I'd not worry about it if you are a bit over one year, no one is really going to string you up for that.


Ask them about any recurring costs just to be sure. If they dropped them, that's great, but I expect they didn't.


They made it sound like it was pro forma. They did want to know which FSDO was my "home" office, and that seemed to change what they did somehow, so perhaps it isn't as simple as they make it sound.


It might be worth contacting Textron about this. I am sure the person who does the LUMPs will know how it applies, or not, in Canada. It is OEM provided, which should help a lot.


Every time I look into something like that, I can't make the numbers work. Usually, within 2-3 years, you could have built up a reserve using what you would have paid them that would handle most events. Also, insurance often offers FOD protection.

Until they give you numbers, you can't judge the value. I predict it will be quite high.

Catastrophic events are quite rare. The JT15D is an old design, but nearly bulletproof with few weak points or critical issues. The modern engines run hotter and with less margins which is why they have computers controlling things.

Mike C.

I've had a few airplanes on JSSI and we dropped them in all cases. It was $700 ish an hour for the plan and that's hard to justify.