What maintenance do you think I am not doing? Is this how you mentally dismiss my numbers, by claiming they are based on improper maintenance?

I'm actually doing more than the requirements.

For example, my left engine inlet deice valve failed. I elected to go ahead and replace both the left and the right side at the same time even though the right side is working fine.

I also have been buying spares and building an inventory. The costs for those spares ARE included in my costs in the year of purchase even though I haven't used much of it yet. For example, ignitors, I have 3 spare ones and have yet to need one. I have a full set of new tires, too.

This sort of preemptive and efficient maintenance pays for itself in the long run.

My plane is in FAR better shape than when Textron maintained it partly because I seek out things to fix before they cause problems and get too expensive. Many of the squawks I have fixed were missed by the previous owner and Textron.

Mike C.

You haven't told me what I am skimping on, you just assume it is occurring. That is your coping mechanism to keep my hard data from affecting your world view.


My engines are not past TBO, no overhauls have been skipped as of yet.

Even if I overhaul my engines right now, that's $1.1M a set (given the $550K number mentioned earlier), and I am still ahead of the CJ3 by $1.9M. Even if I overhaul at Pratt, I am still ahead of the CJ3.


I see, if I don't do the gratuitously expensive thing, then it isn't equivalent, because it isn't expensive enough by definition.

Your argument is entirely circular. My costs are less because I don't spend as much. Well, duh.

Someday you might realize that just because something costs more doesn't mean it is worth more.


You might want to read my posts more carefully, you are messing up the numbers. My proposed comparison was a $1M V versus $4M CJ3 bought in late 2020. I am approximately $3M richer today by choosing the V by simply having the $3M capital difference to invest.

It is okay to tell people to buy a CJ3, but if you tell them to do that because it will be cheaper to own than a V, you are deceiving them.

Mike C.

You haven't told me what I am skimping on, you just assume it is occurring. That is your coping mechanism to keep my hard data from affecting your world view.


My engines are not past TBO, no overhauls have been skipped as of yet.

Even if I overhaul my engines right now, that's $1.1M a set (given the $550K number mentioned earlier), and I am still ahead of the CJ3 by $1.9M. Even if I overhaul at Pratt, I am still ahead of the CJ3.


I see, if I don't do the gratuitously expensive thing, then it isn't equivalent, because it isn't expensive enough by definition.

Your argument is entirely circular. My costs are less because I don't spend as much. Well, duh.

Someday you might realize that just because something costs more doesn't mean it is worth more.


You might want to read my posts more carefully, you are messing up the numbers. My proposed comparison was a $1M V versus $4M CJ3 bought in late 2020. I am approximately $3M richer today by choosing the V by simply having the $3M capital difference to invest.

It is okay to tell people to buy a CJ3, but if you tell them to do that because it will be cheaper to own than a V, you are deceiving them.

Mike C.

It was presented as an example of the price multiple that CJ's face versus the legacy. The pricing is from Textron. Just about everything on a CJ costs more than the equivalent legacy part from Textron.


Link? How many years of numbers?


I just got my V out of phase 1-5, phase 18, phase 30, phase 49, phase 64 yesterday. There were over 120 inspection tasks on the to do list.

I don't have final figures, but expect it to be under $40K, it certainly won't be over $50K. The 3 biggest squawks were a cracked TR bucket ($5000 for salvage replacement), leaking shimmy damper ($1850 for exchange), bad CBS28 power supply ($1800 exchange). Everything else was minor. Really a quite short squawk list. I'll write up a full report when all the dust settles.

I only have to do phase 5 every 6 years, so that cost amortizes per year to be quite small. It really is amazing how little maintenance the Citation V needs, particularly when on the LUMP.

Mike C.

Maybe they would if they had objective guidance about the true costs.

Your clients are already self selected. They hired you and that means they aren't the full spectrum of buyers.

Mike C.

It was presented as an example of the price multiple that CJ's face versus the legacy. The pricing is from Textron. Just about everything on a CJ costs more than the equivalent legacy part from Textron.


Link? How many years of numbers?


I just got my V out of phase 1-5, phase 18, phase 30, phase 49, phase 64 yesterday. There were over 120 inspection tasks on the to do list.

I don't have final figures, but expect it to be under $40K, it certainly won't be over $50K. The 3 biggest squawks were a cracked TR bucket ($5000 for salvage replacement), leaking shimmy damper ($1850 for exchange), bad CBS28 power supply ($1800 exchange). Everything else was minor. Really a quite short squawk list. I'll write up a full report when all the dust settles.

I only have to do phase 5 every 6 years, so that cost amortizes per year to be quite small. It really is amazing how little maintenance the Citation V needs, particularly when on the LUMP.

Mike C.

Maybe they would if they had objective guidance about the true costs.

Your clients are already self selected. They hired you and that means they aren't the full spectrum of buyers.

Mike C.

Here's some real world for you.

I have an M2Gen2 under contract for a group that had a CJ3 we bought them two years ago, they are buying an M2 because they have decided that it does most of their missions and they want something newer, but don't have the budget for a CJ3+.

I have another CJ3 client who just missed a CJ3 we found off market. He emailed me today, with zero input from me, and asked about an M2. Again, he really wants a newer airplane.

You and I come from the old airplane world. You had an MU2... I use to sell old King Airs and Citations. We are not the norm. Most buyers hear "1990" and they think it is an antique. There are a lot more buyers for late model jets than older jets, there just are. The numbers prove that.

I have a Phenom 100 client, $2.5M budget, he called me today and said he is looking at his tax situation and may want to buy a Phenom 100EX or even a 300 instead. He can afford anything he wants to buy. There's a lot more that goes into these decisions than what it cost to own an airplane.

My clients don't self-select, my clients represent the norm. The bulk of the buyers are searching for newer airplanes, so the bulk of my clients are searching for newer airplanes, it's just math.

You look at the world of aviation through your unique and limited prospective, you think everyone should have the same viewpoint.

Maybe they would if they had objective guidance about the true costs.

Your clients are already self selected. They hired you and that means they aren't the full spectrum of buyers.

Mike C.

Good luck. You must remember when a 50 year old rice rocket was the best plane that had ever possibly been invented. Ever. Biggly. Not even a question. And it only cost $12/hour to run. It’s like deja vu all over again.

Of course everyone is stupid for buying a higher value, newer, quieter, nicer to fly, easier to service, more comfortable, better looking and more reliable plane. Fools!

Carry on . . .

Based on what others describe as the typical buyer, I am thankful for that.

I am your budget jet operator, for sure, where I squeeze every bit of performance I can for every dollar.

Mike C.

Local shop on my field (well sort of, the runway at KEHR is closed so they were temporarily at KTWT). Not fancy, but has owner friendly policies such as allowing me to buy parts and accepting of serviceable salvage parts. That alone saves tons.

As I left, they were rolling in a CJ and they have a Bravo showing up tomorrow, so they have a pretty steady flow of Citation business. There are a lot of little shops like this who know the legacy series quite well.


No FADEC, precoolers, trailing link gear on V. Lots of expensive kit on a CJ, too.

The best airplane part is the one that isn't there so anything we can do without is best in general. The TRs are added complexity, so that goes against the rule, but the value they bring is worth it and pays for itself in reduced brake and tire costs. It is very comforting to know I can land without any brakes at all, and do so regularly. Wet is not an issue, the TR adders are small and sometimes zero for landing, so if it rains, my TOLD card doesn't explode.

As far as I can tell, this is the first time any major part was replaced on my TRs from 1991 and 10,000 hours ago per the tracking. The actual cause of the issue was a bad repair (likely done at Textron service center) of a previous crack which created a stress riser where the repair ended. I could have had the TR bucket repaired, but elected to swap it for a salvage unit just to speed things along. I found 5 of them out there, 2 at BAS, 2 at Yingling, and 1 at Cypress, and those are the only places I contacted, so there are probably more out there. I bought one of them at Yingling, off an Ultra they parted out earlier this year. Fits perfectly.

The "new" bucket is the lower one.

I'll look into getting my old TR bucket properly repaired and sell it, so perhaps the net cost will be less in the end.

If someone told me I'd have a $5K TR repair in 4 years, I'd be happy with that for the benefits they bring me. I likely won't have to do any more major TR work the rest of my ownership, and if I do, there is an ample supply of parts out there.

I'd rather have TRs than the expensive and life limited precoolers on the CJ series, that is for sure!

Mike C.

Based on what others describe as the typical buyer, I am thankful for that.

I am your budget jet operator, for sure, where I squeeze every bit of performance I can for every dollar.

Mike C.

Most of this argument comes down to one thing, Aesthetics.

Some people like myself do not care as much about having new so it looks nice. For me my plane is a tool to move myself and others around the country. I care more about performance and safety than aesthetics. I do care about it looking clean and safe but it’s OK it’s older.

I also drive a car for over 6-7 years before I replace it. Many others replace more
Often so they have fresh and new. I don’t care.

No way I could take all the time I spend on my plane and make enough more in my business to justify a 3x cost in plane so it looks good. Just not important to me. I have other things I want to spend money on.

I get why guys want the latest newest plane. There are guys that would rather have a new Cirrus SR22 than a legacy jet. I don’t get it and they don’t get why I do what I do.

Chip and Mike C will never see eye to eye. For one Chip is a buyers rep. He will
always choose more expensive to cover his ass. It’s not his money so it’s easy to spend it. Mike C and myself are spending our own money.

Chip your customers are pre qualified to already be fine spending more. No
way I would hire someone like you to help me buy a plane. Two different worlds.

Glad guys that want to spend more have guys like Chip to help them. They probably need it.

Mike

I figure my return on part searching is about $5000 an hour average.

I don't spend much time doing it and it yields huge benefits.

Case in point: hydraulic pump in 2021.

I noticed my right hydraulic pump was getting weak, brief flicker of the "RH LOW FLOW" caution when doing hydraulic things. Confirmed this by doing a ground run to compare single engine cycle times, everything was 50% longer on right engine only than left engine only, so I caught it before the pump failed or made a bigger mess.

Textron's solution is a new pump $32,000 with a mod kit $3,000 to adapt it to my engine. About $37,000 installed even using my shop. There was also a lead time issue.

My solution was to send an email to my salvage vendor list looking for another pump that was the same as mine. I had 7 replies within an hour. I bought a pump off a Bravo from Atlanta Air Exchange for $200. They had four of them. This is not a misprint. I thought about buying a second one just for backup, but didn't. This was in 2021, so it is likely more now, but probably still under $1000.

My shop installed it, total fix was $1800 parts and labor. Anything hydraulic requires the mule and Skydrol, which is why it costs $1600 in to get it installed.

Now my airplane has matched original style pumps both sides and not some odd mod kit one side, and I saved $35,000. My time invested was under 2 hours.

Recent case: shimmy damper leaks.

Textron has exchange units for $3600. L&M Aircraft has exchange units for $1800 after I found them with a web search on the shimmy damper part number. 6 minutes of effort and I saved $1800. I bet Textron gets theirs done at L&M (which comes from Air Capitol LLC actually).

Another case: CBS28-1 power supply.

This annoying power supply has NiCad batteries in it and serves the emergency lighting system. Mine was last installed 2017 by Textron, so the batteries are dead (NiCads don't last, horrible design, which BTW is used in the CJs). Textron wants $1800 exchange.

There are used ones out there, but who knows what condition the batteries are truly in, and I don't have a ready source for another overhaul/exchange vendor, so I paid the $1800 to get the Textron part (with $5000 core charge). My core was accepted, so all is good.

Sometimes Textron is the right choice and you don't have a better option. Maybe someday I will find out who works on the Radiant stuff and find a cheaper option, but it wasn't worth my time to research this deeply. So $0 saved, but little effort invested.


I'm not in the $5000 an hour class. I make more money per hour buying parts than doing my business. If I was in the $5000 an hour class, I wouldn't have a Citation V but something bigger and a full time SIC, like say an Excel or a VII.

I spend more of my time helping others with their airplanes than I do for mine these days. The benefit is I get to learn about their problems and then I get to check if I have the same issue developing. I've caught a few cases on my plane of issues about to happen and either deal with them or put them on my watch list.

To own an airplane cheaply, you need to find a compliant shop, buy your own parts, make use of salvage parts, catch problems early, and don't let problems fester. The return on investment for doing this is huge. I am certain I am $400K ahead of the "drop the keys and blank check off at the service center" strategy, maybe even double that.

It also helps to have on field maintenance. You obviously save a lot of time and money not having to ferry the plane to the shop (and many owners spend more time doing that than I do sourcing parts), but the benefits go way beyond that. For example, say the tires are nearing replacement but not quite yet. If you are at a remote shop, you say go ahead and replace them so you don't have to bring the plane back just for that. With the local shop, you keep flying until you really reach the tire true end of life and then they replace the tire. So you get more service life from your consumables and your maintenance can occur in smaller increments, at the optimal times, throughout the year.

There are lot more smaller shops who know the legacy series than the CJs, though the older CJs are starting to more and more stay away from the factory service centers and the "gold plated" shops like Stevens, Duncan, Weststar, etc.

Mike C.