20 May 2025, 19:21 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Yesterday, 21:10 |
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Joined: 09/20/14 Posts: 2022 Post Likes: +1613 Location: KBJC, KMCW, KVGT
Aircraft: G36TN, Great Lakes
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Username Protected wrote: While looking at V’s and Ultras there were many on controller. The nicer looking ones I assumed were not available. In the past any time I reached out on a nicer aircraft I was told it was already sold or not available. That wasn’t the case this week.
Most of the ads seem real and are available. So that makes we think the market has shifted. The ones available are priced pretty high which wouldn’t have been a problem years ago. They would be gone.
So as a potential buyer the market seems different for sure. That being said I have never looked at these models so maybe that’s always how it is.
Mike I've had similar results this month. I checked in on 10 Mustangs that would meet my specs. 1 of them was just going under contract (it was very well priced, new paint, up to date, and single owner since new). 1 other has since been withdrawn. Of the remaining 8, I get contacted by several of the brokers on a semi-weekly basis. My gut says there's more downside to pricing coming in the weeks and months ahead. I know that several of the one's I'm tracking are listed because the current owner is moving up to something bigger. I've owned 2 Bonanzas, and didn't find it twice as good as owning 1. My imagination suggests owning 2 Citations is even less fun.
_________________ Matt Beckner
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Yesterday, 23:48 |
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Joined: 05/09/18 Posts: 1060 Post Likes: +750 Location: Tucson, AZ
Aircraft: 1980 TR182
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Username Protected wrote: You save on taxes the first year but pay more the following years. All it does is move the timing of the deduction, it doesn’t change the amount unless tax rates change. Meaning no benefit at all for the time value of money? That must have been taught in the econ or management class I missed.
_________________ Stan Kartchner Tucson, AZ (KRYN]
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 00:28 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20018 Post Likes: +25061 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: You save on taxes the first year but pay more the following years. All it does is move the timing of the deduction, it doesn’t change the amount unless tax rates change. 5% seems woefully underestimated. If you can offset 100% of the cost versus profit this year versus 1/7th of that each year for 7 years, in this time of moderate inflation and good investment return, the impact is FAR more than 5%. If you put the saved money in an SP500 fund, you are WAY WAY ahead of 5% benefit. I'd put the benefit at 25%, perhaps more. As inflation increases and investments do better, the value increases significantly. If bonus depreciation goes into effect, the buyers will get a 25% benefit, but the aircraft prices won't go up 25%, so the buyers win if it passes. Uncertainty slows sales, it always does. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 03:11 |
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Joined: 04/09/09 Posts: 105 Post Likes: +19 Company: Araveco Location: Adelaide AU
Aircraft: Cirrus SR22
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[Link][/Link] Username Protected wrote: You save on taxes the first year but pay more the following years. All it does is move the timing of the deduction, it doesn’t change the amount unless tax rates change. 5% seems woefully underestimated. If you can offset 100% of the cost versus profit this year versus 1/7th of that each year for 7 years, in this time of moderate inflation and good investment return, the impact is FAR more than 5%. If you put the saved money in an SP500 fund, you are WAY WAY ahead of 5% benefit. I'd put the benefit at 25%, perhaps more. As inflation increases and investments do better, the value increases significantly. If bonus depreciation goes into effect, the buyers will get a 25% benefit, but the aircraft prices won't go up 25%, so the buyers win if it passes. Uncertainty slows sales, it always does. Mike C.
It is an interesting thought provoker. So I ran the numbers. At a 7% return, the difference is 3.6% and at 10% it's 5.6%. I guess low corporate taxes means instant write-offs don't move the needle as much as I believed.
That being said, I wish we had that here! To quote the late Kery Packer, it's not like they are spending it all that well!
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 06:02 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 9282 Post Likes: +15869 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: You save on taxes the first year but pay more the following years. All it does is move the timing of the deduction, it doesn’t change the amount unless tax rates change. Meaning no benefit at all for the time value of money? That must have been taught in the econ or management class I missed.
No, the class you missed was basic reading comprehension. I didn’t say anything about time value of money.
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 06:08 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 9282 Post Likes: +15869 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: If you can offset 100% of the cost versus profit this year versus 1/7th of that each year for 7 years, in this time of moderate inflation and good investment return, the impact is FAR more than 5%.
When did aircraft depreciation get limited to 7 years straight line? Last I knew business aircraft are depreciated under a 5 year MACRS schedule. That will significantly impact your made up math.
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 08:39 |
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Joined: 04/05/22 Posts: 3177 Post Likes: +3887
Aircraft: D50E Twin Bonanza
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Username Protected wrote: Every answer I’ve seen here makes an assumption about the buyer’s finances that is common, but not always true. If the assumption is not correct it radically changes the equation.
As I said, it affects everyone differently.
Bonus points for the first person to figure out the assumption. That they have the cash to start with. You come out ahead if you have the cash to invest vs giving it to uncle sam, but if you don't have it to start with your investment return is zero so it's a different math problem.
Last edited on 20 May 2025, 08:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 08:40 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 9282 Post Likes: +15869 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: They need the write off this year, not over the next 5. Once that money is paid in taxes it's gone.
Usually there are look back and carry forwards. There may be some unusual circumstances but I don't think enough to move aircraft prices.
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 08:44 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 9282 Post Likes: +15869 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: Every answer I’ve seen here makes an assumption about the buyer’s finances that is common, but not always true. If the assumption is not correct it radically changes the equation.
As I said, it affects everyone differently.
Bonus points for the first person to figure out the assumption. That they have the cash to start with. You come out ahead if you have the cash to invest vs giving it to uncle sam, but if you don't have it to start with your investment return is zero so it's a different math problem.
From a depreciation perspective, the important assumption is that the business has taxable income. If not, the depreciation just increases the NOL's which will eventually result in a tax break when profits do come, but that reduces or eliminates the value of bonus depreciation.
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 10:17 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7912 Post Likes: +10255 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: From a depreciation perspective, the important assumption is that the business has taxable income. If not, the depreciation just increases the NOL's which will eventually result in a tax break when profits do come, but that reduces or eliminates the value of bonus depreciation. If they didn't have taxable income, why would they do Bonus Depreciation? One factor that is missing is justification. "I want the jet"... claiming Bonus Depreciation gives me a reason! in 2021 I had a really good year in the oil business, it was an unusually high income year for me, so I bought a company vehicle to offset the tax hit. Worked well. In 2023 I "needed" another company vehicle, so I did it again. My CPA argued for straight line, but in my head I justified the expenditure. I would rather put $30k down on a vehicle than send that $30k to the IRS. Add a couple of zeroes and airplane buyers make the same decisions for the same reasons. CPA's understand math, just not always motivation.
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 11:17 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 9282 Post Likes: +15869 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: If they didn't have taxable income, why would they do Bonus Depreciation? Multiple possible reasons, but if you are expecting significant profits in years 2-4 there may still be some benefit over 5 year MACRS. While non-rational motivation can be a factor, I don't think we saw that impact the plane market when the last bill passed in 2017. If anything, the boost to buying came before expiration. I think most people will see this year's tax bill as "I have 4 years to buy xxx" not I need to buy it right now. If there is a change in aircraft prices from bonus depreciation, it is going to be small. Now if there was bonus depreciation this year coupled with tax rates dropping significantly next year, that would be a real motivation to buyers. It ain't happening.
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: Aircraft inventory levels are critically low. Posted: Today, 11:59 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 7912 Post Likes: +10255 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: If they didn't have taxable income, why would they do Bonus Depreciation? Multiple possible reasons, but if you are expecting significant profits in years 2-4 there may still be some benefit over 5 year MACRS. While non-rational motivation can be a factor, I don't think we saw that impact the plane market when the last bill passed in 2017. If anything, the boost to buying came before expiration. I think most people will see this year's tax bill as "I have 4 years to buy xxx" not I need to buy it right now. If there is a change in aircraft prices from bonus depreciation, it is going to be small. Now if there was bonus depreciation this year coupled with tax rates dropping significantly next year, that would be a real motivation to buyers. It ain't happening.
We have multiple clients that will buy this year specifically because of Bonus Depreciation.
As Jim said, it is situational, and typically tied to someone having a windfall year.
This is "I sold 25% of my company to a PE firm and need to spend $12M for the write off"
This year, assuming BD returns, we will see people who bought 3+ years ago able to upgrade because they needed 100% to come back so they can cover recapture.
To be clear, thousands and thousands of buyers have taken Bonus Depreciation on aircraft over the last 8 years... it is a BIG deal. The issue we have right now is there will be pent up demand because so many people are waiting for the announcement.
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