Here's a nice one: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=235672

For some people, it comes down to what will fit in the hangar they have. Not everyone has the luxury of building or buying bigger on a hangar.

Why did you compare the new price of one plane to the used price of the other?

Do they have similar operating costs?


IMO, you’re comparing a banana and an end table. Wildly different buyers, missions, markets, etc.

I sold airplanes for nearly 15 years. I was VERY biased. First Turbo Commanders, hated the overly generic King Airs! Then Learjets... slowtations were crap.

Then I sold King Airs and Legacy Citations...

Pilatus? Who in the heck would buy a SETP? Single engine airplanes are day time VFR only!

Phenom? That's a jungle jet.

Citation Mustang? isn't that cute. Why would you buy that joke when you could buy a Citation V for the same price?

Then 10 years ago I started Jet Acquisitions and job #1 was to forget everything I had learned selling airplanes.

I had to mentally shift away from "this is what you need" to "what do you need"

I found out that people who buy airplanes are really smart, and that if you ask the question and then shut your mouth, they'll tell you what they want and why.

My job isn't to sell anything and I now have zero brand loyalty. I provide information and smart people use that information to make decisions.

If 100 people a year are buying SF50's it isn't that there are that many stupid people, it is that there are 100 people that have more knowledge of their situation and motivation than you have.

So the statement "they should have bought this instead" is born out of simple ignorance. If you go ask a SF50 buyer why he bought it, he will tell you, but only if you genuinely care and aren't just looking for ammo to attack him and prove him wrong.

I'm not here to win, I'm here to educate for those who still have open minds.

You should ignore what I post since you have formed a hard opinion.

Mike C.

Chip,

Practically all interactions today, especially on SM, is about cheese and hustle.

Sure, there is a small percentage of interactions that are about genuine transfer of information or pure entertainment. But for the most part, SM (and in fact, a lot of life) has become so monetized (directly or indirectly) that practically everything is about protecting one's cheese, not getting your hustle busted, or similar astroturfing efforts.

In fact, if you look at most postings where people square off, and start from the standpoint of "Ok, whose hustle is getting busted and/or whose cheese is getting moved?", then a lot of what you see comes into focus.

It's not about being wrong or right, it's about throwing enough chaff into the conversation that no distinct answer pops out of the search engine. The goal is to deflect blame and throw question into the claims of your opponent.

A lot of economists said the internet would be the end of the economy as we knew it, because most of economics up until that point was based on "imperfect knowledge". That led to a lot of squish in the facts that allowed people to profit in the margins. Push on the universe, and it tends to push back, so this chaffing of "facts" is a counter to that, and we're almost back to where we were.

But back to your point. It's not about people accepting that they might be wrong. A better answer would be for people to be honest about what their interests are. "It's not that you're wrong, but I make a ton of coin doing what I do and that's what lets me live the life of Riley, and I'm automatically against whatever it is we're talking about that remotely threatens that."

Best,
Rich

Why did you compare the new price of one plane to the used price of the other?

Do they have similar operating costs?


IMO, you’re comparing a banana and an end table. Wildly different buyers, missions, markets, etc.

Ok, lets compare to used one. Oldest Sf50 is 2.7 MM still 1 million more. Operating costs are the same. Yes the Sf50 uses less fuel (marginally... 18 mph) but maintenance cost is virtually the same (65K a year).. What you are forgetting is the airplane is 30% slower and therefor its hourly costs are 30% MORE. Not to mention utility is less with altitude limitations, pressurization is piss poor compared to the Piaggio and load carrying capacity isn't even in the same league. Not to mention it looks like a flying sweet potato. I will take a catfish over a sweet potato ever time.

I like the Piaggio. I'd love it if it looked like the Starship!



But then it wouldn't be as spacious. But oh my lord look at that thing!

I suspect you have never met an SF50 owner?

These people turn there noses up at late model Citations because they "feel" old.

You are not going to convert any SF50 buyers into Piaggio buyers.

Different strokes.

I have one in the next hangar over from me. I have just about converted him. );

It’s pretty easy with an interior like this,,,,

Beautiful

It took me all of ten seconds to find this $1.78M one.
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... t-aircraft
It has 700 hrs on the single engine, TBO 4,000 hrs.

This $1.8M Piaggio has 7,000 hours on the two engines, TBO 3,600 hrs.
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... p-aircraft

That's definitely comparing bananas and potatoes.


OK, I'm ignorant on this one - but the per-hour costs are THE SAME? Not the direct costs, the actual long-term ownership costs. Sure, it's a potato - but I never heard of a potato owner waiting months AOG for parts, or having *anything* on the plane that required a six figure cost to overhaul outside of the one engine.

I would be really surprised to hear that ten year costs are the same - hangar, insurance, and engine depreciation included.

It took me all of ten seconds to find this $1.78M one.
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... t-aircraft
It has 700 hrs on the single engine, TBO 4,000 hrs.

This $1.8M Piaggio has 7,000 hours on the two engines, TBO 3,600 hrs.
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... p-aircraft

That's definitely comparing bananas and potatoes.


OK, I'm ignorant on this one - but the per-hour costs are THE SAME? Not the direct costs, the actual long-term ownership costs. Sure, it's a potato - but I never heard of a potato owner waiting months AOG for parts, or having *anything* on the plane that required a six figure cost to overhaul outside of the one engine.

I would be really surprised to hear that ten year costs are the same - hangar, insurance, and engine depreciation included.

Exactly, Cirrus is the best thing to ever happen to every other turbine aircraft manufacturer in the world.

Nearly ten years ago, one of my first clients wanted a King Air 300, he hired me and when we met he was flying an SR22, I asked him how long he had it and he responded "since new, 400 hours" and added that it was his second. Then he added that the first one had about 400 hours on it when he sold it, so I asked how much time he had and the number wasn't much higher than the combined time of the two SR22's... how much turbine time... not enough, maybe zero, I don't recall.

I explained that we was going to need a twin rating and to have some twin time, and then he would have to fly with another pilot for some time, at least 50 hours, but likely more.

Long story short, we paused his King Air acquisition and he went and bought an Eclipse. I have no idea how the insurance worked, because we don't do Eclipse.

That story seems strange to most of you, because it was unusual for a guy with piston single time to have any hope to jump straight to turbines.

Today, Cirrus has changed the game. SR22 to SF50 to TBM 960... no problem. SR22 to SF50 to Mustang, get a twin rating and a little mentor time. Done.

The turbine time is what the insurance company cares about.

Now that Mark's buddy has it, he can consider a Piaggio, but assuming he went from SR22 to SF50, the P180 wasn't an easy option at that point.

I have an employee with 400 hours, he will probably go the SR-SF-Mustang route. I may see if we can play a little game here and see how quickly he can transition into a Mustang from where he is today. I've already sent him to the King Air Academy and he did great!