Mike C, I've corrected you before on databases. They are no where near $10k. Universal FMS on our excel is $4560 (would be the same on the CJ1/CJ2). Collins $7760 (ridiculous I know). We paid $6745 for our G3000 on the CJ3+ but about $2k of that is our international chart subscription.

Combined programs are around $1100/hr for a 525, $500/hr is the engine program. I am vocal against proparts and protech as they are not in interests of saving the owner money. What they can do is provide a nearly completely flat budget (there are notable exceptions however) which some take comfort in. In a combined 40+ years of managing 7 citations over the past 9 years there would have been 1 year out of those where we spent more on parts than the proparts annual minimum payment. Even in that case we would have been far behind over the 3 year contract as the next year we spent maybe $10k on parts.

Proparts/protech are not indicative of true operating cost.

Most owners who are on them service them exclusively at service centers. This is not a fair comparison to your operating cost. If you serviced yours exclusively at a service center I would put money that your V would be more expensive to maintain than a CJ2.

I don't keep current pricing on legacy citations as I don't regularly deal with them but I have the data sheet from 2017 on all the models. A Citation V was $385 on proparts and $275 for Protech. A CJ2 that year was $264 for proparts and $230/hr for protech.

Also notable that Textron wants a 250 hour per year minimum commitment for their programs on the legacy citations vs 150 on the 525 line...

-The Citation Jet Exchange

[quote="Chip McClure"
That depends on the aircraft. I get where you are coming from and don’t disagree that it’s a one-sided relationship. The good news is that folks that don’t want to be on a program still have options.[/quote]


Agree but Williams doesn’t give you any option at all. If you choose to be off them you pay through the nose AND get put in the back of the line. They increase prices yearly well over their costs and God help you if you are off programs and have a FOD incident, 500k per side HOT sections….They are ripe to be sued for monopolistic and predatory trade practices. Why haven’t they? Simple… they use their defense contract status to protect them.

I will never own a Williams engine. And now Pratt is starting to take cues from them.

Hi Chip, I think you might have some confusion on how dealers (or flippers as you call them) add tremendous value to the airplane ecosystem. I have 100% complete control over the entire process from start to finish and am entirely responsible for my own success or failure.

I go out and find airplanes on my own, negotiate a deal, fly out out to inspect the airplane using my own A&P license, then I use my own money to purchase the airplane, then I use my own pilot's license/type ratings to fly that airplane home. On the way home I generate the squawk list (of all the things that I missed on the ground and all things that that the previous mechanics missed). I then park the airplane in my large hangar that I built from scratch solely for this purpose.

Then I have my on staff mechanics do what needs to be done to make the airplane as perfect as possible mechanically. This usually involves using parts from my 7 figure inventory of parts that required parting out (and storing) 50 plus airplanes. Then I get to put on my test pilot hat and go test fly the airplane (sometimes multiple test flights) using my own jet fuel to make sure everything works.

And usually, I have to pay (once again with my own money) to deal with paint, interior, new boots, hot sections, and avionics). So now I have to carry a 500K-7 figure asset on my books with imputed interest for how ever long this takes.

Then, I have to market the airplane which usually goes through an additional prebuy with the seller's mechanic who often has to find unimportant items to justify his fee. Then, I fix these little items to make everyone happy.

And usually, I put on my CFI suit and teach the guy how to fly the airplane and get him ready for a checkride. I also sometimes wear a banker and insurance hat to make the deal possible. I also often deal with trade ins which is basically starting this whole process over a second time.

Once the airplane leaves, I then deal with virtually unlimited post sale support which includes advice and parts. This usually goes on for several years and sometimes forever.

The end result is a safe, hand selected, curated airplane that is a great value for the customer. The process involved here has been refined and polished to create the best possible airplanes at the lowest cost.

The short story is that this is work and involves a lot of personal risk; it's a lot more involved than "flipping".

It was going to cost me $14K to keep the UNS-1F up to date when I got the plane. Part of that was I had to buy a new thingy to load the databases because the method my plane had was no longer supported. I think it used some wildly out of date media like Zip drives and I had to buy some adapter box and put it into the plane. I ditched all that with the Garmin upgrade.


My G700 + GTN 750 uses the same plans as somebody with a 172, so I'm at $825/year. Garmin can extort more money for the G3000 because it is a "jet" thing as opposed to my setup which is a general GA plan.


$600/hour for maintenance is a lot. That would be $232,000 so far for me on my V *if* I met the program minimums, which I generally don't. I am WAY under that figure.

With engine program included, and accounting for the minimums, I would be OVER $500K spent since I owned the airplane. That is an effective rate of about $1300 per hour due to minimums. That would double my budget per year.


Not clear that is true given my inspection intervals are so much longer, like 6 years for phase 1-5.

Even if it is true, the V offers more opportunities to get service away from service centers. There is simply more field experience of legacy Citations at local shops than there is for the CJ series. Like the JT15D having options, the legacy series has more options. More choice means better economics.

The majority of CJ owners are service center and on programs. The majority of owner operator legacy Citations are maintained away from service centers and not on programs. That's the ecosystems the two planes operate in. You can find CJs at local shops, and legacy Citations at service centers, but that isn't the norm. Over time, I expect to see more CJs leaving the service centers, but that transition is slow.

The quality of maintenance my plane had at Textron was poor. I have found and corrected all sorts of questionable things on my airplane. The plane is in way better shape at my local shop than it was at Textron.

You have provided a lot of evidence that CJ owners are getting fleeced by Textron. More and more, Textron sees the owners as captured revenue and that is reflected in the inspection programs and ever escalating program costs. I have a LUMP because that is no lost revenue for Textron. CJ doesn't, because Textron makes money from CJ owners.

My plane is roughly the equivalent of a CJ3 and there is no way I could fly a CJ3 for what I spend. I could fly two Vs for the cost of one CJ3.

I publish my costs. I don't see any CJ owner doing the same. For maintenance and parts the last 3 years:

2022: $42,794 (phase 1-4, ACM overhaul, fixing latent issues)
2023: $12,645 (tires, misc)
2024: $22,345 (hydraulic AOG event, misc)

Total: $77,784

This year is phase 1-5, so it will go up, but that happens every 6 years, so amortized over a long period.

Somebody who is told to buy a CJ3 because it will be cheaper to fly than a V is getting bad advice.

Mike C.

Hi Chip, I think you might have some confusion on how dealers (or flippers as you call them) add tremendous value to the airplane ecosystem. I have 100% complete control over the entire process from start to finish and am entirely responsible for my own success or failure.

I go out and find airplanes on my own, negotiate a deal, fly out out to inspect the airplane using my own A&P license, then I use my own money to purchase the airplane, then I use my own pilot's license/type ratings to fly that airplane home. On the way home I generate the squawk list (of all the things that I missed on the ground and all things that that the previous mechanics missed). I then park the airplane in my large hangar that I built from scratch solely for this purpose.

Then I have my on staff mechanics do what needs to be done to make the airplane as perfect as possible mechanically. This usually involves using parts from my 7 figure inventory of parts that required parting out (and storing) 50 plus airplanes. Then I get to put on my test pilot hat and go test fly the airplane (sometimes multiple test flights) using my own jet fuel to make sure everything works.

And usually, I have to pay (once again with my own money) to deal with paint, interior, new boots, hot sections, and avionics). So now I have to carry a 500K-7 figure asset on my books with imputed interest for how ever long this takes.

Then, I have to market the airplane which usually goes through an additional prebuy with the seller's mechanic who often has to find unimportant items to justify his fee. Then, I fix these little items to make everyone happy.

And usually, I put on my CFI suit and teach the guy how to fly the airplane and get him ready for a checkride. I also sometimes wear a banker and insurance hat to make the deal possible. I also often deal with trade ins which is basically starting this whole process over a second time.

Once the airplane leaves, I then deal with virtually unlimited post sale support which includes advice and parts. This usually goes on for several years and sometimes forever.

The end result is a safe, hand selected, curated airplane that is a great value for the customer. The process involved here has been refined and polished to create the best possible airplanes at the lowest cost.

The short story is that this is work and involves a lot of personal risk; it's a lot more involved than "flipping".

Hi Chip, I think you might have some confusion on how dealers (or flippers as you call them) add tremendous value to the airplane ecosystem. I have 100% complete control over the entire process from start to finish and am entirely responsible for my own success or failure.

I go out and find airplanes on my own, negotiate a deal, fly out out to inspect the airplane using my own A&P license, then I use my own money to purchase the airplane, then I use my own pilot's license/type ratings to fly that airplane home. On the way home I generate the squawk list (of all the things that I missed on the ground and all things that that the previous mechanics missed). I then park the airplane in my large hangar that I built from scratch solely for this purpose.

Then I have my on staff mechanics do what needs to be done to make the airplane as perfect as possible mechanically. This usually involves using parts from my 7 figure inventory of parts that required parting out (and storing) 50 plus airplanes. Then I get to put on my test pilot hat and go test fly the airplane (sometimes multiple test flights) using my own jet fuel to make sure everything works.

And usually, I have to pay (once again with my own money) to deal with paint, interior, new boots, hot sections, and avionics). So now I have to carry a 500K-7 figure asset on my books with imputed interest for how ever long this takes.

Then, I have to market the airplane which usually goes through an additional prebuy with the seller's mechanic who often has to find unimportant items to justify his fee. Then, I fix these little items to make everyone happy.

And usually, I put on my CFI suit and teach the guy how to fly the airplane and get him ready for a checkride. I also sometimes wear a banker and insurance hat to make the deal possible. I also often deal with trade ins which is basically starting this whole process over a second time.

Once the airplane leaves, I then deal with virtually unlimited post sale support which includes advice and parts. This usually goes on for several years and sometimes forever.

The end result is a safe, hand selected, curated airplane that is a great value for the customer. The process involved here has been refined and polished to create the best possible airplanes at the lowest cost.

The short story is that this is work and involves a lot of personal risk; it's a lot more involved than "flipping".

I would buy a Tarver airplane. I've seen enough of his work to appreciate the value.

That's also a group of airframes that you don't just search around on the internet and learn all the ins and outs. It takes a ton of experience and the only way to get that is through hard work. Not enough people care now to put in the time to achieve what MT provides to the marketplace.

Hi Chip, I think you might have some confusion on how dealers (or flippers as you call them) add tremendous value to the airplane ecosystem... it's a lot more involved than "flipping".

+1 on buying from Michael. While I ended up not buying a legacy Citation and instead opted for my Piaggio…His information and input on Citation purchasing and pitfalls was invaluable to me. He also warned me from buying an airplane that would’ve been a real heartache. Kudos to him.

Agree but Williams doesn’t give you any option at all. If you choose to be off them you pay through the nose AND get put in the back of the line. They increase prices yearly well over their costs and God help you if you are off programs and have a FOD incident, 500k per side HOT sections….They are ripe to be sued for monopolistic and predatory trade practices. Why haven’t they? Simple… they use their defense contract status to protect them.

I will never own a Williams engine. And now Pratt is starting to take cues from them.

I looked at that closely back when I was hot on an FJ44 converted SII. It turns out my fuel burn is about 15% higher than an FJ44-3A would do which is roughly the same size engine. The JT15D-5A engine is quite a bit more efficient than, say, the -1A in the 501 so the fuel burn is not as bad as one might expect.

That's about 27 GPH block extra usage, or about $100/hour net cost adder in fuel for my V. Maybe at most $125/hour penalty.

With the program costing near $500, the fuel savings aren't enough to make that pencil out. FJ44 program prices are going way up, fuel prices are coming down, so the benefit is getting worse economically as time goes by.

The other factor is the minimum hours. I'm flying about 100 hours a year give or take, so the actual net cost per hour would be closer to $750 an hour for a pair of FJ44 engines given the 150 hour minimum. On that scale, the fuel savings really don't move the needle very much.

I really tried to make the FJ44 programs pencil out and I couldn't, and that was back when they were $300/hour. Looking back, I am very happy I have a JT15D-5A engine now.

Another side effect is that FJ44 converted legacy airplanes, and the 525 series, don't get a LUMP program, so that is another invisible cost to the FJ44 powered airplanes I don't suffer.

If my plane was FJ44 powered, I would be saving some fuel but it would cost me a lot more money to operate in the end.

Mike C.

It was going to cost me $14K to keep the UNS-1F up to date when I got the plane. Part of that was I had to buy a new thingy to load the databases because the method my plane had was no longer supported. I think it used some wildly out of date media like Zip drives and I had to buy some adapter box and put it into the plane. I ditched all that with the Garmin upgrade.


My G700 + GTN 750 uses the same plans as somebody with a 172, so I'm at $825/year. Garmin can extort more money for the G3000 because it is a "jet" thing as opposed to my setup which is a general GA plan.


$600/hour for maintenance is a lot. That would be $232,000 so far for me on my V *if* I met the program minimums, which I generally don't. I am WAY under that figure.

With engine program included, and accounting for the minimums, I would be OVER $500K spent since I owned the airplane. That is an effective rate of about $1300 per hour due to minimums. That would double my budget per year.


Not clear that is true given my inspection intervals are so much longer, like 6 years for phase 1-5.

Even if it is true, the V offers more opportunities to get service away from service centers. There is simply more field experience of legacy Citations at local shops than there is for the CJ series. Like the JT15D having options, the legacy series has more options. More choice means better economics.

The majority of CJ owners are service center and on programs. The majority of owner operator legacy Citations are maintained away from service centers and not on programs. That's the ecosystems the two planes operate in. You can find CJs at local shops, and legacy Citations at service centers, but that isn't the norm. Over time, I expect to see more CJs leaving the service centers, but that transition is slow.

The quality of maintenance my plane had at Textron was poor. I have found and corrected all sorts of questionable things on my airplane. The plane is in way better shape at my local shop than it was at Textron.

You have provided a lot of evidence that CJ owners are getting fleeced by Textron. More and more, Textron sees the owners as captured revenue and that is reflected in the inspection programs and ever escalating program costs. I have a LUMP because that is no lost revenue for Textron. CJ doesn't, because Textron makes money from CJ owners.

My plane is roughly the equivalent of a CJ3 and there is no way I could fly a CJ3 for what I spend. I could fly two Vs for the cost of one CJ3.

I publish my costs. I don't see any CJ owner doing the same. For maintenance and parts the last 3 years:

2022: $42,794 (phase 1-4, ACM overhaul, fixing latent issues)
2023: $12,645 (tires, misc)
2024: $22,345 (hydraulic AOG event, misc)

Total: $77,784

This year is phase 1-5, so it will go up, but that happens every 6 years, so amortized over a long period.

Somebody who is told to buy a CJ3 because it will be cheaper to fly than a V is getting bad advice.

Mike C.

Are you willing to publish actual numbers like I do?

Show us what it costs over 3 or more years, every dollar for parts, programs (if any) and maintenance.

If a 525 is cheaper to maintain than my V, which is the general claim and reason to spend more for them, that should be easy to demonstrate with actual numbers.


How do you know the planes not mentioning PP or PT are not on those programs? My impression is that those programs don't have the buyer carry over value that the engine program has so they aren't mentioned very often in the ads. The presumption a plane is not on those programs if they are not mentioned may be wrong.

What I know is that when the yearly price increases to PP and PT are announced, there is a lot of unhappy people on CJP complaining about it. This tells me that there are a lot of people on those programs, but it is a declining number as the financial burdens increase.

What I know is that if I bought a CJ3, my cost of operation would be at least double my V when all costs are considered. The cost of capital alone exceeds my entire yearly budget on the V.

Mike C.

Corey is correct, the majority of 525’s are not on PP/PT, you’re just using that to make a point.

Is a 525 cheaper to operate than your 560?

No, absolutely not.

Is the average 525 cheaper to operate than the average 560… ABSOLUTELY.

The 525 is just not the airplane the 560 is.

I seriously doubt that.

The capital cost from the higher cost of the 525 hull value alone swamps almost everything else. On top of that I have more readily available used parts, longer inspection intervals with the LUMP, and more local shops with legacy experience to choose from.

The "newer is cheaper" myth is what you sell to your clients, but I think it is quite wrong in this case.

The "nobody can do what Mike does" is also a myth. I'm not doing anything all that special, just paying attention and being at least somewhat involved in the maintenance strategy. Most of what I do I learned from others already doing the same thing, so I am clearly not unique in this regard.

Mike C.