Chip, how does JetAcq get compensated? Flat rate or % of NPP?

If it is a % of the negotiated purchase price, then I totally get why you're advocating finding unicorns for your clients. You find them the most pristine, lowest time, lowest risk aircraft in the market so you've done the best you can, right? Who could fault your findings? And by the way the purchase price will be the highest so your fee is the highest.

The more I think about this, the more it burns me up.

Even the one man show at my local FBO / charter operation in Northern Iowa could do some spreadsheet analysis to contrast different available CJ3/CJ4s for me. Get aircraft A, put new engines on, upgrade the avionics and replace the interior... or get aircraft B and fly it right away. Ultimately, he helped us decide that a partnership in a new C68'A was the best choice. We bought that and since that time the market has gone up about 30%, so not only have we divided the fixed expenses with some other owners, we've enjoyed a faster, more capable aircraft, and own a nice asset which has appreciated. Unless we talk to my CPA.

I think your clients might really appreciate it if you could bring them a range of options which provide best value, rather than the most expensive, lowest risk option.

But as Mike points out, your method is helping the rest of the market negotiate deals on the "leftovers"!

I just spent the last 45 minutes researching the recent Citation V sales data, just to prove a point.

I am actually quite pleased as the data proves my points better than I expected.

The fact is, this is what I do, not only do I have the experience, I have the tools, I have the data. I also have the instinct for it, it's that component that is hard to explain. The only analogy I can come up with is the "hunter" analogy, If you've ever been hunting with a pro, they typically find the game when no one else can. It's just a thing. I recently went on a Pheasant hunt with a group of friends, Vanessa Falk was on the trip. I don't know how many birds she killed, but it was probably more than most of us guys... combined! She is a pro hunter. She's has that certain something, that instinct for it. She just knows it.

There have been 18 Citation V's that have closed in the last 6 months, here's the high level details. I didn't dig into foreign history, damage history, etc., that level of research takes hours and we only do that when we are working for a client.

(DOM - Days on Market)

1989 Off Market 9379TT, 1750/1403 SOH
1989 69 DOM 8098TT, 1005/918 SOH
1989 57 DOM 12,492TT, 1195/1164 SOH
1990 174 DOM 5617TT, Past TBO / Past TBO
1990 57 DOM 7786TT, 3279/3279 SOH
1990 Off Market 10,898TT, UNK / UNK
1990 101 DOM 6185TT, VMAX Engine Program
1991 Off Market 6028TT, 1459/1459 SOH
1991 Off Market 9041TT, 2772/2772 SOH
1991 Off Market 10,410TT, 1933/1667 SOH
1991 Off Market 9297TT, UNK / UNK
1991 Off Market 14,337TT, 2625/2625 SOH
1992 148 DOM 8029TT, 914/914 SOH
1993 Off Market 10,712TT, 0/2220 SOH
1994 122 DOM 10,165TT, 2876/3023 SOH
1994 28 DOM 9364TT, 2345/2345 SOH
1994 Off Market UNK TT, UNK / UNK

As you can see, only one airplane had engines past TBO, though it is possible that the three with unknown times may be beyond TBO.

You'll also see that half of the airplanes that sold were never advertised.

This is REAL data, REAL airplanes, purchased by REAL buyers, whose requirements are very similar to what we see from our average client.

Chip, what point does that prove? Without pricing information, that data is useless.

Sell me a decent airframe with engines near/past TBO, and let me operate it part 91.

Or, sell me a decent airframe with engines near/past TBO, I'll send it for new engines, and I'll have better airplane at a lower price that I can lease back to a charter operator and recoup some of my costs.

(Edited to inject more questions, I'm thinking about starting my own "buyer representation" company where we'll actually do some analysis to present options to our buyers so they can make informed decisions)

I didn’t really say most buyers want past TBO. But you also included engine programs. And said anything else was “unacceptable”. So I would say at minimum the reality is more nuanced than you’re presenting.

Jon, if he presents anything other than unicorns, it takes more time and work, and eats into the top line as well as the bottom line. I'll give him credit for creating a business where he can filter through the market options to present the cream of the crop to his clients and get paid to do so.

You guys simply make TOO many assumptions.

We regularly buy airplanes that need engines, panels, paint and interior, especially in the King Air market. In the last year we have purchased a B200 (that we practically stole) and we helped our client do a G1000NXi, new paint and new interior. We purchased an UGLY Citation CJ2+ and made it beautiful with new Elliott paint and interior. We did have another B200 project on the hook for John Ewald, but as he mentioned, we have switched to a PC12.

My favorite trick is buying airplanes with weak paint or ugly stripes and taking them to a friend of mine who has been touching up and restriping airplanes for me for nearly 20 years!

Mike doesn't know or understand anything about what we do, and most of what he says is the opposite of true.

We work off a flat fee, so it doesn't benefit us if our client spends more.

You would need to hire us to get pricing data

The point is that the airplanes that are actually selling, are similar to what I said people were buying.

I didn't leave anything out, those are ALL of the sales.

And I'd be happy to find you an airplane close to or past TBO. Again, I don't make the criteria our clients do.

My apologies (Todd I guess I'm the most obtuse person on BT)

I thought you said earlier that Phenoms with engines at TBO were unacceptable. Re-reading it, you said your clients stipulated that.

Thanks for reassuring me about the flat fee. That's great!

A Phenom 300E at TBO?

No, I conflated that... you were clear.

No, I conflated that... you were clear.

I’m a client of Chip’s and feel compelled to chime in here.

Chip has been exactly what I wanted for my aircraft search. We have hashed out different aircraft types due to me changing my mind as to what I want.

Legacy aircraft were discussed a few times and we discussed the pros and cons. Ultimately I went with my initial instincts and decided to go towards something newer. Legacy jets aren’t the best fit for most owner operators, they just don’t have the knowledge and resources to economically operate one even with the low acquisition cost. I appreciate, and may be somewhat jealous about how Mike operates his 560, but he is not the norm in my opinion.

My search has not been “oversimplified”. Not sure what that means, but simple in any form certainly doesn’t apply. I’m not quite sure how he’s wasting my capital doing what he has been asked to do, but I appreciate the concern.

You claim to know the prices, so let's test this.

My plane is 560-0149, N618K, previously N61GK.

I know, with reasonable assurance, the last 3 transactions of my plane, what it sold for, what date, and who bought it. The last one is obvious, that was me, and I've already publicly stated the price, so that's gimme. Can you tell us what the previous two prices were?

You claim, with an air of exclusive knowledge, that you know what the ACTUAL selling price of planes are, even the off market ones, so let's see if this is true. No registry paperwork contains that information generally, so you would have to have some rather interesting inside knowledge of all these transactions that are generally kept confidential. This makes me suspicious that you don't actually know this data since I see no evidence that supports that assertion.

I see 3 possible outcomes:

Evading the question with some lame excuse.

A wrong answer.

A right answer.

I'm willing to be impressed, so give it your best shot, professional hunter that you claim to be.

Mike C.

Of the 18, 7 are within 1000 hours of TBO or past it, or unknown (which usually means past TBO).

I thought you said such planes don't sell? Given under 2500 hours is 72% of the TBO period, but only 55% of the sales, why are planes in the remaining 28% of TBO period selling at a higher rate?

Mike C.

If you don't have the knowledge, you will be hurt economically no matter how new the plane is.

The newer the plane, the more expensive things are generally. I bought a used hydraulic pump for $200 and there were plenty to choose from. A CJ2 hydraulic pump is $35K from Textron and there are few used ones available.

The CJ series needs $25K precoolers every 9 years and some planes are AOG waiting for them. My precooler is original with the airplane and not a life limited part.

My plane has a LUMP that extends phase 1-4 to 3 years, and phase 1-5 to 6 years. This is a huge reduction in costs and down time, and lowers wear and tear on the airplane. CJs don't get that.

My plane is maintained by my local shop so I don't spend time ferrying it to a service center and can oversee the work more closely. Finding local shop who have worked on legacy Citations is more common than CJs. My shop maintains abut 8 legacy Citations as well as 4 BeechJets.

There are a lot more examples.

It is a common myth that the older Citations cost more to maintain, but that isn't reality.


Are you a member of Citation Jet Pilots CJP?

The forum provides owner to owner details and help to Citation owners and is worth every penny. Owners find out things that save them many thousands of dollars per year. Even for the "here are the keys and a blank check, call me when done" types, it is very worthwhile.

CJP is absolutely the place to be informed about owner flown Citations, both legacy and CJ series. This will save you money, and make your flying safer. You can also vet any advice you are getting. There are a lot of opinions out there to choose from.

I get that owning a Citation is intimidating, there is a lot to know, but having a support group helps a lot. I've learned a lot from CJP and I try to contribute back to the group when I can.

Good luck with whatever you get, but you can't avoid getting an education with a newer plane. That will either come usefully before you need it, or expensively right after you needed it.

Mike C.