01 May 2025, 10:19 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 21 Mar 2025, 21:05 |
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Joined: 01/23/13 Posts: 9088 Post Likes: +6848 Company: Kokotele Guitar Works Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
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Username Protected wrote: I've also heard there's no path for the G1000, but it seems almost anything can be done by STC?
Yeah, but there’s no STC for anything other than the G1000Nxi. I’m not sure I’d hold my breath that there will be, either. It’s a relatively small fleet size, so the economics don’t support Garmin or a 3rd party developing an STC.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 21 Mar 2025, 23:33 |
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Joined: 07/10/10 Posts: 1068 Post Likes: +773 Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
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If I was in charge of Textron/Cessna piston singles, I would put the 210 cantilever wing on the 206 and find some aerodynamic modifications to make it as fast as possible. Then I’d market it against Cirrus as a six-place, load-hauling beast with decent speed. Screw the parachute. And in honor of the 421, I’d call it the model 221 “Condor”. I’m a freakin’ genius. 
_________________ ----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 00:02 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 8204 Post Likes: +10368 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: If I was in charge of Textron/Cessna piston singles, I would put the 210 cantilever wing on the 206 and find some aerodynamic modifications to make it as fast as possible. Then I’d market it against Cirrus as a six-place, load-hauling beast with decent speed. Screw the parachute. And in honor of the 421, I’d call it the model 221 “Condor”. I’m a freakin’ genius.  The 206 wing with struts is used to withstand rough field operations that a cantilever wing on a 210 wouldn't, not to mention the landing gear. For a hauler used in rough conditions, speed is secondary, no point in trying to make it go faster; it would never be the speed of a 210. That parachute on the Cirrus sold the decision maker in the family, the wives, on the purchase of an airplane, when they might not have otherwise supported buying a plane.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 00:20 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 8204 Post Likes: +10368 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: I've also heard there's no path for the G1000, but it seems almost anything can be done by STC?
Yeah, but there’s no STC for anything other than the G1000Nxi. I’m not sure I’d hold my breath that there will be, either. It’s a relatively small fleet size, so the economics don’t support Garmin or a 3rd party developing an STC.
So if they can gut the panel on steam gauge 182's and put it a glass panel, why can't they change the G1000 or Nxi to something else legally when it's available? The G1000 182 came out in 2004, and the G1000 was standard equipment in 2008 , so probably a good sized fleet. Are you saying people will just park them because they can't change the panel when it's avionics become obsolete? No other STC now, but I think the avionics industry will support them with advancements.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 09:33 |
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Joined: 01/23/13 Posts: 9088 Post Likes: +6848 Company: Kokotele Guitar Works Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
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Username Protected wrote: So if they can gut the panel on steam gauge 182's and put it a glass panel, why can't they change the G1000 or Nxi to something else legally when it's available? The G1000 182 came out in 2004, and the G1000 was standard equipment in 2008 , so probably a good sized fleet. Are you saying people will just park them because they can't change the panel when its avionics become obsolete? No other STC now, but I think the avionics industry will support them with advancements.
They haven’t so far. What makes you think they will in the future?
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 13:03 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 8204 Post Likes: +10368 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: So if they can gut the panel on steam gauge 182's and put it a glass panel, why can't they change the G1000 or Nxi to something else legally when it's available? The G1000 182 came out in 2004, and the G1000 was standard equipment in 2008 , so probably a good sized fleet. Are you saying people will just park them because they can't change the panel when its avionics become obsolete? No other STC now, but I think the avionics industry will support them with advancements.
They haven’t so far. What makes you think they will in the future?
Because the oldest G1000 182 is 21 years old, and planes are kept flying and supported by Textron to twice that age or more , and it doesn't seem logical that the avionics wouldn't be supported too, if not with a G1000, a replacement rather than the planes going to the scrap yard for lack of avionics.
The KX155 came out in 1969; 56 years old and still supported and even with plug and play after market replacements. I've always been concerned with Garmin's high priced planned obsolescence business model, but they haven't rendered planes unairworthy with no replacements available.
I see Garnin''s glass panel products like computer printers. The printers are relatively inexpensive, but you're going to spend more than that on continuously replacing the ink, but with Garmin, the product is expensive, and so are the updates, software and nav. And Garmin has it figured out "Oh, you want those red Xs to go away, just send us a check for the updates." And it's not like you can continue on without updates. Garmin's business model and prices created companies like Dynon.
You can tell I'm not a Garmin fan, not because of their innovation or quality, because of their cost and planned obsolescence .
As far as cost of replacement goes for the older airframes, guys are doing $100,000 avionics upgrades on 40 year old $70,000 airplanes. Just because the G1000 is part of the Type Certificate, doesn't mean it can't be replaced by something else with a Supplemental Type Certificate when that become viable.
Probably a replacement for the G1000 will be a Dynon, like the Dynon Skyview HDX or it's successor.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 14:43 |
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Joined: 01/23/13 Posts: 9088 Post Likes: +6848 Company: Kokotele Guitar Works Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
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Paul, I get what you're saying, but I don't think the logic is sound and the evidence we have so far is that avionics companies are not interested.
Sure, folks spend six figures on panel upgrades. But only a small fraction of that is the flight display panel. The rest is labor, autopilots, EIS, etc. And Garmin's take from that is even smaller still.
I just looked at the FAA database and there are roughly 1700 G1000 182s. That's small potatoes for Garmin. Some percentage are going to be wrecked before they need an upgrade and some percentage will be flown with obsolete panels absolutely as long as possible.
Maybe Dynon would do it, but I wouldn't hold my breath. They've been slow to add planes to their AML and seem to be focusing on other market segments.
So, back to the OP's needs... Whether you think someone will invest money in developing an STC or not, there's currently no upgrade path. If you're betting whether or not there will be in the future.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 17:38 |
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Joined: 11/15/17 Posts: 1049 Post Likes: +544 Company: Cessna (retired)
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Username Protected wrote: If I was in charge of Textron/Cessna piston singles, I would put the 210 cantilever wing on the 206 and find some aerodynamic modifications to make it as fast as possible. Then I’d market it against Cirrus as a six-place, load-hauling beast with decent speed. Screw the parachute. And in honor of the 421, I’d call it the model 221 “Condor”. I’m a freakin’ genius.  The 206 wing with struts is used to withstand rough field operations that a cantilever wing on a 210 wouldn't, not to mention the landing gear. For a hauler used in rough conditions, speed is secondary, no point in trying to make it go faster; it would never be the speed of a 210. That parachute on the Cirrus sold the decision maker in the family, the wives, on the purchase of an airplane, when they might not have otherwise supported buying a plane.
With regard to cantilever versus strutted wings, maybe there is a reason why the 206 is still being built and the 210 is not.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 17:58 |
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Joined: 11/30/12 Posts: 4697 Post Likes: +5296 Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
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Username Protected wrote: With regard to cantilever versus strutted wings, maybe there is a reason why the 206 is still being built and the 210 is not. I would say it's because Cessna decided to stop making & supporting the retractable gear on the 210.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 18:49 |
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Joined: 03/01/15 Posts: 929 Post Likes: +907 Location: Hayward, CA
Aircraft: D50E
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Username Protected wrote: If I was in charge of Textron/Cessna piston singles, I would put the 210 cantilever wing on the 206 and find some aerodynamic modifications to make it as fast as possible. Then I’d market it against Cirrus as a six-place, load-hauling beast with decent speed. Screw the parachute. And in honor of the 421, I’d call it the model 221 “Condor”. I’m a freakin’ genius.  If you measure the struts (length, chord, and thickness) on a 206 for me, I’ll calculate how much of a speed penalty they impose. I bet it’s 5 knots or less. Also, if they allow the fuselage to be less tall by not putting a spar in the cabin, and if they allow the wing structure to be lighter by not having to resist all the moment at the root, it shrinks the speed advantage even more.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 22 Mar 2025, 22:47 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 8204 Post Likes: +10368 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: With regard to cantilever versus strutted wings, maybe there is a reason why the 206 is still being built and the 210 is not. I would say it's because Cessna decided to stop making & supporting the retractable gear on the 210.
Cessna was out of the high performance SE recip market when the 210 production ended. It looked like the 400 was going to be a good replacement, but had problems. In the meantime, Cirrus grabbed a lot of high performance SE recip market share.
So we are left with the top Cessna SE recip being the T206 with the rest of Cessna's money going into turbines. Probably a good financial move for Cessna, but a loss for GA I think.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 26 Mar 2025, 16:03 |
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Joined: 04/20/13 Posts: 50 Post Likes: +2 Location: 2b7
Aircraft: Debonair
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Both great airplanes…if you need 6 seats, 206 obviously…I’ve had both,currently own 210 which is by far more expensive to operate,but faster…I would like to trade for either a 206 or 182 because my of my age, insurance is becoming an issue. 182 and 206 prices are too inflated for my liking right now though.
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Post subject: Re: cessna 182 vs 206 Posted: 26 Mar 2025, 17:19 |
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Joined: 03/28/17 Posts: 8204 Post Likes: +10368 Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: Both great airplanes…if you need 6 seats, 206 obviously…I’ve had both,currently own 210 which is by far more expensive to operate,but faster…I would like to trade for either a 206 or 182 because my of my age, insurance is becoming an issue. 182 and 206 prices are too inflated for my liking right now though. The prices do seem to be inflated, but how much would they come down in a recession? The supply equation wouldn't change except can only get fewer, but if the cost of new planes came down, then probably the used prices would come down. If you are in the need for a 182 or 206 due to insurance costs, buying now and capturing the insurance premium savings would probably make up for any temporary future decline in airplane prices. My insurance with me soon to be 80 on the '75 182 is $1,100 annual. $1M liability with $100K per passenger, $100K hull. My friend, a couple of years older than me with a 172 RG had to sell because the premiums were going past $2500. Remember ,the number of seats affect premium. Edit: My hangar neighbor with a 210 says the gear saddles are becoming as rare as hen's teeth because they aren't being made anymore, and there is some hoarding going on.
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