03 May 2025, 16:04 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 03 Jul 2024, 08:32 |
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Joined: 07/10/08 Posts: 561 Post Likes: +113 Location: Leander, Texas
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John, I tend to agree with you. I would ask the maintainers where it indicates you can fly without a stall strip. If the operator chooses to not have an MEL, I would look at the MMEL. Here is a link to the Citation 500 series MMEL. https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/mmel/MMEL_CE-500_Rev_11_Draft.pdfIf the item is not mentioned in the AFM and POH, and the MMEL does not give specific relief for the item, I could argue it is required. Kevin
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 03 Jul 2024, 12:20 |
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Joined: 08/16/13 Posts: 733 Post Likes: +1534 Company: Contract Citations King Airs Location: Pensacola FL
Aircraft: 1972 V35B
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Username Protected wrote: John, I tend to agree with you. I would ask the maintainers where it indicates you can fly without a stall strip. If the operator chooses to not have an MEL, I would look at the MMEL. Here is a link to the Citation 500 series MMEL. https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/mmel/MMEL_CE-500_Rev_11_Draft.pdfIf the item is not mentioned in the AFM and POH, and the MMEL does not give specific relief for the item, I could argue it is required. Kevin Kevin, Thank you for the MMEL link. I downloaded it to my ipad ForeFlight documents for ready reference. I found no reference in the MMEL either. The maintainers position was they couldn't find anywhere that said you couldn't. Not acceptable in my book. All, Great input. Thank you. I also querried my recurrent instructor at Flt Safety and he agrees that is is not airworthy but said that was his opinion and not from a reference document. It falls into the "just common sense category" but I want to show these guys in black and white. I am sure an insurance company would reject any claim it they learned it was missing in an accident or incident.
_________________ v/r --John "The World is Small When You Fly a Beechcraft" --W.H.B.
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 03 Jul 2024, 12:49 |
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Joined: 04/26/13 Posts: 21587 Post Likes: +22103 Location: Columbus , IN (KBAK)
Aircraft: 1968 Baron D55
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I agree that it is necessary. Logically, it is going to influence the stall characteristics of the wing; that's why it's there. If you remove them, or worse only one, you have changed the behavior of that wing at the stall. That, to me makes it a no-go item whether it's on some list or not.
Beyond that, the AFM doesn't specify that the vertical stabilizer be in place, but I think we'd all agree that it's implied. With a MMEL or MEL, it would be easy to determine what others think, but personally I wouldn't fly without it.
From a CYA perspective, what would you say to the FAA inspector during the ramp check, and do you think they would agree?
_________________ My last name rhymes with 'geese'.
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 03 Jul 2024, 12:55 |
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Joined: 08/16/13 Posts: 733 Post Likes: +1534 Company: Contract Citations King Airs Location: Pensacola FL
Aircraft: 1972 V35B
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Username Protected wrote: From a CYA perspective, what would you say to the FAA inspector during the ramp check, and do you think they would agree? Yep, totally agree.
_________________ v/r --John "The World is Small When You Fly a Beechcraft" --W.H.B.
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 03 Jul 2024, 14:54 |
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Joined: 11/25/16 Posts: 1894 Post Likes: +1559 Location: KSBD
Aircraft: C501
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Username Protected wrote: They tell us at recurrent in the CJ if it missing its a no go. Same with my CE-500 training.
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 03 Jul 2024, 15:47 |
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Joined: 08/24/13 Posts: 9613 Post Likes: +4465 Company: Aviation Tools / CCX Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
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Username Protected wrote: I also querried my recurrent instructor at Flt Safety and he agrees that is is not airworthy but said that was his opinion and not from a reference document.
It falls into the "just common sense category" but I want to show these guys in black and white. The reference document is 91.213.
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 03 Jul 2024, 20:36 |
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Joined: 04/29/13 Posts: 753 Post Likes: +540
Aircraft: C177RG, ATOS-VR
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I'll bet that there is nothing in the check list about the wingtip being attached either, but if it were missing that should be an obvious nogo item.
Vince
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 04 Jul 2024, 00:18 |
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Joined: 11/23/15 Posts: 200 Post Likes: +91 Location: Greensboro, NC
Aircraft: Twin Bonanza, MU2
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An MEL only addresses inoperative equipment. Even when they are broken, they must be installed. Removing equipment should be accomplished by engineering order or STC.
Typically, Component Deviation List (CDL) is a listing of regulator-approved non-structural external parts that may be missing but the airplane remains airworthy.
I don’t believe Cessna published a CDL as this was not part of the certification. So then flying with external parts missing means that the aircraft is not in its original certificated configuration, thus, it is not airworthy.
My 2 cents.
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 04 Jul 2024, 00:31 |
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Joined: 04/24/18 Posts: 736 Post Likes: +359 Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
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Username Protected wrote: I agree that it is necessary. Logically, it is going to influence the stall characteristics of the wing; that's why it's there. If you remove them, or worse only one, you have changed the behavior of that wing at the stall. That, to me makes it a no-go item whether it's on some list or not.
Beyond that, the AFM doesn't specify that the vertical stabilizer be in place, but I think we'd all agree that it's implied. With a MMEL or MEL, it would be easy to determine what others think, but personally I wouldn't fly without it.
From a CYA perspective, what would you say to the FAA inspector during the ramp check, and do you think they would agree? Although I agree with the substance of the posts that say the aircraft is not airworthy without the strips, I just want to clarify that I’m pretty sure that the stall strips do not alter the characteristics of the wing in a stall. The point of the stall strip is, that at high angles of attack, it initiates a vortex, that hits the horizontal stabilizer behind it and causes a rumble that acts as a stall warning. Were one to be missing, the other one would still cause a (likely weaker) rumble.
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Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness Posted: 04 Jul 2024, 10:06 |
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Joined: 08/16/13 Posts: 733 Post Likes: +1534 Company: Contract Citations King Airs Location: Pensacola FL
Aircraft: 1972 V35B
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Username Protected wrote: I agree that it is necessary. Logically, it is going to influence the stall characteristics of the wing; that's why it's there. If you remove them, or worse only one, you have changed the behavior of that wing at the stall. That, to me makes it a no-go item whether it's on some list or not.
Beyond that, the AFM doesn't specify that the vertical stabilizer be in place, but I think we'd all agree that it's implied. With a MMEL or MEL, it would be easy to determine what others think, but personally I wouldn't fly without it.
From a CYA perspective, what would you say to the FAA inspector during the ramp check, and do you think they would agree? Although I agree with the substance of the posts that say the aircraft is not airworthy without the strips, I just want to clarify that I’m pretty sure that the stall strips do not alter the characteristics of the wing in a stall. The point of the stall strip is, that at high angles of attack, it initiates a vortex, that hits the horizontal stabilizer behind it and causes a rumble that acts as a stall warning. Were one to be missing, the other one would still cause a (likely weaker) rumble. I would also add that the stall strip causes the laminar flow to separate at a lower angle of attack that is to say “sooner” in a constantly increasing AOA scenario. Therefore with one strip missing and constantly increasing AOA to a full stall, you will get an asymmetrical wing stall and induced roll off as well as a weaker rumble. A pilot should recognize the rumble before a full stall and recover immediately. The induced asymmetrical roll off in a full stall would be a change to the aerodynamic characteristics.
_________________ v/r --John "The World is Small When You Fly a Beechcraft" --W.H.B.
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