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03 May 2025, 15:34 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2024, 20:51 
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Company: Contract Citations King Airs
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Is a Citation CE-550 airworthy with one stall strip missing?

I say it is not. It was certified out of the factory with them attached and they directly affect the aerodynamic flight characteristics.

The preflight inspection checklist does not address the stall strip at all, just references the de-ice boots. The AFM and POH does not reference the stall strip as required being in place, or is a limitation if missing, at least not that I could find reading them both. I could not find a KOEL and it is not operated under 135 with a MEL.

....so, I'm hearing (from some maintainers) that since they could not find a reference to them being required, you could fly it to a location to get it repaired. They didn’t even go down the special ferry permit process.

I'm throwing in the B.S. flag.

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"The World is Small When You Fly a Beechcraft" --W.H.B.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2024, 21:07 
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Ive seen lots of Citations with them missing or in the completely wrong spot...


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 08:32 
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John,

I tend to agree with you. I would ask the maintainers where it indicates you can fly without a stall strip.

If the operator chooses to not have an MEL, I would look at the MMEL. Here is a link to the Citation 500 series MMEL.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/mmel/MMEL_CE-500_Rev_11_Draft.pdf

If the item is not mentioned in the AFM and POH, and the MMEL does not give specific relief for the item, I could argue it is required.

Kevin


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 10:45 
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The Citation II has no stall warning system other than the aerodynamic rumble you feel in the yoke. The stall strip is a critical and required part of that feature. If it is missing or in the wrong place, the plane is not airworthy.

My V has a stall system tied to an AoA vane driving a stick shaker but it has a radically different wing than the II.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 11:48 
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They tell us at recurrent in the CJ if it missing its a no go.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 12:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
John,

I tend to agree with you. I would ask the maintainers where it indicates you can fly without a stall strip.

If the operator chooses to not have an MEL, I would look at the MMEL. Here is a link to the Citation 500 series MMEL.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/mmel/MMEL_CE-500_Rev_11_Draft.pdf

If the item is not mentioned in the AFM and POH, and the MMEL does not give specific relief for the item, I could argue it is required.

Kevin

Kevin, Thank you for the MMEL link. I downloaded it to my ipad ForeFlight documents for ready reference. I found no reference in the MMEL either. The maintainers position was they couldn't find anywhere that said you couldn't. Not acceptable in my book.

All, Great input. Thank you. I also querried my recurrent instructor at Flt Safety and he agrees that is is not airworthy but said that was his opinion and not from a reference document.

It falls into the "just common sense category" but I want to show these guys in black and white. I am sure an insurance company would reject any claim it they learned it was missing in an accident or incident.

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"The World is Small When You Fly a Beechcraft" --W.H.B.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 12:49 
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I agree that it is necessary. Logically, it is going to influence the stall characteristics of the wing; that's why it's there. If you remove them, or worse only one, you have changed the behavior of that wing at the stall. That, to me makes it a no-go item whether it's on some list or not.

Beyond that, the AFM doesn't specify that the vertical stabilizer be in place, but I think we'd all agree that it's implied. With a MMEL or MEL, it would be easy to determine what others think, but personally I wouldn't fly without it.

From a CYA perspective, what would you say to the FAA inspector during the ramp check, and do you think they would agree?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 12:53 
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....looked up in both my 525 and 560 preflight checklists.
525 "Stall Strip - CONDITION (no nicks or dents), SECURE"
560 " Verify proper installation and adhesion of the Stall Strips installed on the wing deice boots."

Those models were much later than the 550 and Cessna obviously did a more through job in writing those checklists.

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--John
"The World is Small When You Fly a Beechcraft" --W.H.B.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 12:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
From a CYA perspective, what would you say to the FAA inspector during the ramp check, and do you think they would agree?
Yep, totally agree.

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--John
"The World is Small When You Fly a Beechcraft" --W.H.B.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 14:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
They tell us at recurrent in the CJ if it missing its a no go.

Same with my CE-500 training.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 15:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
I also querried my recurrent instructor at Flt Safety and he agrees that is is not airworthy but said that was his opinion and not from a reference document.

It falls into the "just common sense category" but I want to show these guys in black and white.


The reference document is 91.213.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 20:36 
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I'll bet that there is nothing in the check list about the wingtip being attached either, but if it were missing that should be an obvious nogo item.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 04 Jul 2024, 00:18 
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An MEL only addresses inoperative equipment. Even when they are broken, they must be installed. Removing equipment should be accomplished by engineering order or STC.

Typically, Component Deviation List (CDL) is a listing of regulator-approved non-structural external parts that may be missing but the airplane remains airworthy.

I don’t believe Cessna published a CDL as this was not part of the certification. So then flying with external parts missing means that the aircraft is not in its original certificated configuration, thus, it is not airworthy.

My 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 04 Jul 2024, 00:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
I agree that it is necessary. Logically, it is going to influence the stall characteristics of the wing; that's why it's there. If you remove them, or worse only one, you have changed the behavior of that wing at the stall. That, to me makes it a no-go item whether it's on some list or not.

Beyond that, the AFM doesn't specify that the vertical stabilizer be in place, but I think we'd all agree that it's implied. With a MMEL or MEL, it would be easy to determine what others think, but personally I wouldn't fly without it.

From a CYA perspective, what would you say to the FAA inspector during the ramp check, and do you think they would agree?


Although I agree with the substance of the posts that say the aircraft is not airworthy without the strips, I just want to clarify that I’m pretty sure that the stall strips do not alter the characteristics of the wing in a stall. The point of the stall strip is, that at high angles of attack, it initiates a vortex, that hits the horizontal stabilizer behind it and causes a rumble that acts as a stall warning. Were one to be missing, the other one would still cause a (likely weaker) rumble.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation II missing a stall strip airworthiness
PostPosted: 04 Jul 2024, 10:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
I agree that it is necessary. Logically, it is going to influence the stall characteristics of the wing; that's why it's there. If you remove them, or worse only one, you have changed the behavior of that wing at the stall. That, to me makes it a no-go item whether it's on some list or not.

Beyond that, the AFM doesn't specify that the vertical stabilizer be in place, but I think we'd all agree that it's implied. With a MMEL or MEL, it would be easy to determine what others think, but personally I wouldn't fly without it.

From a CYA perspective, what would you say to the FAA inspector during the ramp check, and do you think they would agree?


Although I agree with the substance of the posts that say the aircraft is not airworthy without the strips, I just want to clarify that I’m pretty sure that the stall strips do not alter the characteristics of the wing in a stall. The point of the stall strip is, that at high angles of attack, it initiates a vortex, that hits the horizontal stabilizer behind it and causes a rumble that acts as a stall warning. Were one to be missing, the other one would still cause a (likely weaker) rumble.

I would also add that the stall strip causes the laminar flow to separate at a lower angle of attack that is to say “sooner” in a constantly increasing AOA scenario. Therefore with one strip missing and constantly increasing AOA to a full stall, you will get an asymmetrical wing stall and induced roll off as well as a weaker rumble. A pilot should recognize the rumble before a full stall and recover immediately. The induced asymmetrical roll off in a full stall would be a change to the aerodynamic characteristics.
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--John
"The World is Small When You Fly a Beechcraft" --W.H.B.


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