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29 May 2025, 05:40 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: 2 MAX birdstrikes and now everyone's mad at Boeing again…
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2024, 11:20 
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Another great article by Dominic Gates:

Username Protected wrote:
Last year, two Southwest Airlines 737 MAX jets lost engines on takeoff after striking large birds, emergencies made much more serious when smoke and fumes penetrated inside the airplanes.

Flight crews on both aircraft — one taking off from Havana, Cuba, the other from New Orleans — followed procedures and made emergency landings back at the airports.

Recognizing an abnormally high risk in these two unusual incidents, Boeing sent an alert to airlines in February to make sure pilots know the correct procedure in such an emergency to quickly stop the penetration of smoke and fumes.

[...]

The goal [of the alert] was to minimize the risk of catastrophe if pilots facing a similar incident didn’t handle it as well as the two Southwest crews did. Yet a detail in Boeing’s alert — mention of a system on the MAX’s LEAP engine the pilots hadn’t known about — caused concern among some pilots.

That system, a fail-safe feature developed by engine maker CFM International, worked as designed to constrain even worse damage to and a potential breakup of the engine.
But pilots want to know more about the system, which is not in their manuals, and how exactly it performed in these two incidents.



To summarize: having learned nothing from the MCAS debacle, Boeing/CFM have at least one other system that isn't mentioned in the flight manuals or QRH, and some SWA and AA pilots are salty about it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 MAX birdstrikes and now everyone's mad at Boeing again
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2024, 11:33 
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That’s ok. The crew of Boeing’s Starliner are relearning the lesson that it’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in orbit, than on orbit wishing your ride home was reliable.

https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... 33?mod=mhp

“Starliner has been pinned down by two main issues: a series of helium leaks in a propulsion system and problems with several thrusters that are used to maneuver the vehicle. NASA and Boeing teams have been studying both issues before they permit Starliner to attempt to leave the station with Wilmore and Williams, re-enter Earth’s atmosphere and land under parachutes.”


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 Post subject: Re: 2 MAX birdstrikes and now everyone's mad at Boeing again
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2024, 16:13 
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I see no big deal - I have no clue about the inner workings on the fuel controller, nor the shitter, yet it doesn't prevent me from using them. As long as I flew, we never knew this sort of detail. What is "hidden" in how the ils or gps? Someone needs a drink :cheers:

Username Protected wrote:
Last year, two Southwest Airlines 737 MAX jets lost engines on takeoff after striking large birds, emergencies made much more serious when smoke and fumes penetrated inside the airplanes.

Flight crews on both aircraft — one taking off from Havana, Cuba, the other from New Orleans — followed procedures and made emergency landings back at the airports.

Recognizing an abnormally high risk in these two unusual incidents, Boeing sent an alert to airlines in February to make sure pilots know the correct procedure in such an emergency to quickly stop the penetration of smoke and fumes.

[...]

The goal [of the alert] was to minimize the risk of catastrophe if pilots facing a similar incident didn’t handle it as well as the two Southwest crews did. Yet a detail in Boeing’s alert — mention of a system on the MAX’s LEAP engine the pilots hadn’t known about — caused concern among some pilots.

That system, a fail-safe feature developed by engine maker CFM International, worked as designed to constrain even worse damage to and a potential breakup of the engine.
But pilots want to know more about the system, which is not in their manuals, and how exactly it performed in these two incidents.



To summarize: having learned nothing from the MCAS debacle, Boeing/CFM have at least one other system that isn't mentioned in the flight manuals or QRH, and some SWA and AA pilots are salty about it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 MAX birdstrikes and now everyone's mad at Boeing again
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2024, 20:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
That’s ok. The crew of Boeing’s Starliner are relearning the lesson that it’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in orbit, than on orbit wishing your ride home was reliable.

https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... 33?mod=mhp

“Starliner has been pinned down by two main issues: a series of helium leaks in a propulsion system and problems with several thrusters that are used to maneuver the vehicle. NASA and Boeing teams have been studying both issues before they permit Starliner to attempt to leave the station with Wilmore and Williams, re-enter Earth’s atmosphere and land under parachutes.”


Just spit the thing towards the Sun and have Musk send up a reliable Dragon capsule on a SpaceX rocket to bring them home.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 MAX birdstrikes and now everyone's mad at Boeing again
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2024, 14:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
I see no big deal - I have no clue about the inner workings on the fuel controller, nor the shitter, yet it doesn't prevent me from using them. As long as I flew, we never knew this sort of detail. What is "hidden" in how the ils or gps? Someone needs a drink :cheers:



You can't be serious....but I didn't see the green font!!!!

These crews are trained that the indicators to run the SEVERE DAMAGE checklist are FIRE indications, a seized core, or unusual vibrations. If none of those exist, they are trained to run the ENGINE FAIL QRH (or SURGE/STALL QRH if that's applicable). So, one of the main indicators for determining which QRH should be run is no longer applicable because the manufacturer added a feature which invalidates it, the crews are not only not informed they continue to be taught to look for an indicator that no longer exists, and you think that's applicable to knowing how the toilet flushes?????

This isn't some small deal....these crews could have easily become distracted looking for a non-existent fire that was in addition to the severe engine damage they suffered (and didn't know about) leading to a much larger catastrophe.

This is exactly along the lines of the decisions regarding crew training relative to MCAS with information being withheld from the crews for the sake of monetary savings at the potential expense of safety.

In this case, in the absence of a fire the crews will never see the primary indications they are taught to look for in cases of SEVERE DAMAGE, so they'll never execute the appropriate QRH (the only one that has them pull the FIRE HANDLE to shut off bleed air), so they'll always be distracted by having to run an additional QRH to determine if there is an associated fire, and you say "oh well, I didn't know how the shitter worked, either"? The way that pilots themselves are not only accepting, but even laughing at the intentional dumbing down of pilots by manufacturers is disturbing to me.

By the way, since you asked....what is hidden in GPS? Nothing but a time signal. But what is hidden in the FMS/navigation system is the potential for crews to be unwittingly drug off course and into potential CFIT or airspace incursions due to GPS spoofing and/or jamming. If crews don't know how to compare GPS position to IRS position, or turn off GPS or radio updating to their FMS, they may not be equipped to handle such issues if they arise. And, since all these systems are related, GPS spoofing/jamming can be indicated by seemingly unrelated alerts such as TCAS failure, etc, but the crews will only be able to recognize correlation if they're trained to. But...who cares about all of that with the shitter and all?


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 Post subject: Re: 2 MAX birdstrikes and now everyone's mad at Boeing again
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 11:43 
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The crew is probably pretty happy since they get more time in orbit.

I'm assuming anyone who picks "astronaut" as their career choice wants to spend time in space.

Username Protected wrote:
That’s ok. The crew of Boeing’s Starliner are relearning the lesson that it’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in orbit, than on orbit wishing your ride home was reliable.

https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... 33?mod=mhp

“Starliner has been pinned down by two main issues: a series of helium leaks in a propulsion system and problems with several thrusters that are used to maneuver the vehicle. NASA and Boeing teams have been studying both issues before they permit Starliner to attempt to leave the station with Wilmore and Williams, re-enter Earth’s atmosphere and land under parachutes.”


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 Post subject: Re: 2 MAX birdstrikes and now everyone's mad at Boeing again
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 11:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
The crew is probably pretty happy since they get more time in orbit.

I'm assuming anyone who picks "astronaut" as their career choice wants to spend time in space.

Pack spare underwear and a toothbrush, just in case you’re up there longer, right?


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 Post subject: Re: 2 MAX birdstrikes and now everyone's mad at Boeing again
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2024, 12:43 
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As much as I like to dump on Boeing and Starliner, I don't think that they're worried about the return. I think they've determined as best they can that the issues have been resolved satisfactorily (all but one RCS thruster is back online and the helium leaks are acceptable). I suppose at this point it's the next surprise that you need to worry about, but that hasn't materialized yet. They've said that the delay is to gather as much data as they can on the failures because the service module is going to burn up. Thus the extra time. Could it be BS? Sure. Is it? Skeptic though I am I don't think so.

As to more time in space, you bet, I'd say bring it on! Party at the rehydrator, lunch is on me.

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