16 Jun 2024, 10:15 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 10:21 |
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Joined: 01/01/10 Posts: 3469 Post Likes: +2416 Location: Roseburg, Oregon
Aircraft: Citation Mustang
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Username Protected wrote: Your program fees for the Mustang cost about the entire fuel bill on the 501. Add in the capital difference placed in T bills and the 501 is practically free to operate. I didn’t realize the entire fuel bill on a 501 is only $450/hr. That’s about 1/2 of what I thought. Engine programs become another discussion, however. Being able to leverage the used engine market makes the 501 viable, no question. But, it comes with other risks and costs. Nevertheless, a nice 501 like the one offered on this thread is an excellent way for a pilot to break into the turbine world at a reasonable price.
_________________ Previous A36TN owner
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 10:34 |
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Joined: 11/06/20 Posts: 1356 Post Likes: +1352 Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: Your program fees for the Mustang cost about the entire fuel bill on the 501. Add in the capital difference placed in T bills and the 501 is practically free to operate. I didn’t realize the entire fuel bill on a 501 is only $450/hr. That’s about 1/2 of what I thought. Engine programs become another discussion, however. Being able to leverage the used engine market makes the 501 viable, no question. But, it comes with other risks and costs. Nevertheless, a nice 501 like the one offered on this thread is an excellent way for a pilot to break into the turbine world at a reasonable price. To be fair he also mentioned investing the price difference. $1.5M invested in VMFXX yields ~$80k/year. So if one flies 100 hours/year that's $800/hour plus what you quoted for the programs yields $1,250/hour "savings" over a Mustang. As you said, the programs discussion is nuanced but Mike's point is valid. You don't need Proparts on a 501 because if something breaks you just call Mike. I lost a strobe bulb a year or so back and Mike had one for 1/3 the price of Textron. All that to say, can't go wrong w/ a Mustang or a 501 - but this is a 501 for sale thread after all
Also, for anyone on the fence about a Tarver gently used Citation - you are buying into an entire ecosystem. Mike is passionate about these aircraft and really wants to keep them flying. In the beginning I had a million questions and Mike answered them all (or found someone who could). The learning curve is steep in the beginning but there is no question in my mind that this is the safest way to transport my family.
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 11:06 |
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Joined: 04/27/10 Posts: 1907 Post Likes: +849 Location: KFFZ & KGRR
Aircraft: BE36, CE501
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Username Protected wrote: does anyone have (and willing to share with me) the s/n lineage of the 501s? looking for s/n by year. it's for my own personal use- won't be published. I put this together for my own personal use years ago. I think the data source was an Aircraft Bluebook I had lying around. For discussion only; Not to be used for Navigation! 1977 0001 § 0026, 0028 § 0043, 0045 § 0048, 0050, 0051, 0053, 0054, 0261 § 0263, 0267, 0272, 0273, 0275 1978 0044, 0049, 0052, 0055 § 0062, 0064 § 0084, 0090, 0093, 0098, 0283 § 0285 1979 1980 0125, 0133, 0139, 0143 § 0170, 0175, 0183, 0188, 0193 1981 0171 § 0174, 0176 § 0182, 0184, 0186 § 0192, 0194 § 0220, 0222 § 0232, 0237, 0260, 0314 1982 0221, 0233 § 0236, 0238, 0240 § 0248, 0250, 0252, 0254 § 0258, 0317, 0319 1983 0251, 0253, 0259, 0321 § 0325, 0675 1984 0676 § 0686 1985 0687 § 0689
_________________ Last 60 mos: CL65 type rating, flew 121, CE680, CE525S, and CE500 type ratings.
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 11:26 |
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Joined: 09/05/09 Posts: 4163 Post Likes: +2831 Location: Small Town, NC
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Username Protected wrote: does anyone have (and willing to share with me) the s/n lineage of the 501s? looking for s/n by year. it's for my own personal use- won't be published. I put this together for my own personal use years ago. I think the data source was an Aircraft Bluebook I had lying around. For discussion only; Not to be used for Navigation! 1977 0001 § 0026, 0028 § 0043, 0045 § 0048, 0050, 0051, 0053, 0054, 0261 § 0263, 0267, 0272, 0273, 0275 1978 0044, 0049, 0052, 0055 § 0062, 0064 § 0084, 0090, 0093, 0098, 0283 § 0285 1979 1980 0125, 0133, 0139, 0143 § 0170, 0175, 0183, 0188, 0193 1981 0171 § 0174, 0176 § 0182, 0184, 0186 § 0192, 0194 § 0220, 0222 § 0232, 0237, 0260, 0314 1982 0221, 0233 § 0236, 0238, 0240 § 0248, 0250, 0252, 0254 § 0258, 0317, 0319 1983 0251, 0253, 0259, 0321 § 0325, 0675 1984 0676 § 0686 1985 0687 § 0689
thank you!
_________________ "Find worthy causes in your life."
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 13:13 |
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Joined: 11/25/16 Posts: 1859 Post Likes: +1423 Location: 2IS
Aircraft: C501
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Username Protected wrote: Also, for anyone on the fence about a Tarver gently used Citation - you are buying into an entire ecosystem. Mike is passionate about these aircraft and really wants to keep them flying. In the beginning I had a million questions and Mike answered them all (or found someone who could). The learning curve is steep in the beginning but there is no question in my mind that this is the safest way to transport my family.
Can't overstate this. Mike makes this all work.
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 13:14 |
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Joined: 11/25/16 Posts: 1859 Post Likes: +1423 Location: 2IS
Aircraft: C501
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Username Protected wrote: does anyone have (and willing to share with me) the s/n lineage of the 501s? looking for s/n by year. it's for my own personal use- won't be published. I put this together for my own personal use years ago. I think the data source was an Aircraft Bluebook I had lying around. For discussion only; Not to be used for Navigation! 1977 0001 § 0026, 0028 § 0043, 0045 § 0048, 0050, 0051, 0053, 0054, 0261 § 0263, 0267, 0272, 0273, 0275 1978 0044, 0049, 0052, 0055 § 0062, 0064 § 0084, 0090, 0093, 0098, 0283 § 0285 1979 1980 0125, 0133, 0139, 0143 § 0170, 0175, 0183, 0188, 0193 1981 0171 § 0174, 0176 § 0182, 0184, 0186 § 0192, 0194 § 0220, 0222 § 0232, 0237, 0260, 0314 1982 0221, 0233 § 0236, 0238, 0240 § 0248, 0250, 0252, 0254 § 0258, 0317, 0319 1983 0251, 0253, 0259, 0321 § 0325, 0675 1984 0676 § 0686 1985 0687 § 0689 I can add mine to that....1978 sn 501-0078
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 14:15 |
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Joined: 07/10/10 Posts: 948 Post Likes: +637 Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
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Username Protected wrote: Also, for anyone on the fence about a Tarver gently used Citation - you are buying into an entire ecosystem. Mike is passionate about these aircraft and really wants to keep them flying. In the beginning I had a million questions and Mike answered them all (or found someone who could). The learning curve is steep in the beginning but there is no question in my mind that this is the safest way to transport my family. Ok, cool, but what happens when Tarver dies or retires? It sure looks like I'd be in the same situation I am with my gently-used Conquest--scraping the bottom of the barrel.
_________________ ----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 14:28 |
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Joined: 01/01/10 Posts: 3469 Post Likes: +2416 Location: Roseburg, Oregon
Aircraft: Citation Mustang
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Username Protected wrote: Ok, cool, but what happens when Tarver dies or retires? It sure looks like I'd be in the same situation I am with my gently-used Conquest--scraping the bottom of the barrel. That's the mortality test of many airplanes. Currently, the availability of used engines and parts for legacy Citations is great enough to help sustain the active fleet. As the numbers deplete and the boneyards dry up, it will become more difficult. It happened faster with the Conquest because of the smaller fleet size. With legacy Citations there's more laying around to pick off of. I'm sure Tarver has forecasted the run out.
_________________ Previous A36TN owner
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 16:48 |
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Joined: 07/08/11 Posts: 427 Post Likes: +186 Location: KHPN
Aircraft: E55
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Mike,
Can you (or anyone else) compare the cost of operating a comparably priced and equipped MU2 to this plane? Including acquisition and disposition?
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 20:53 |
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Joined: 01/23/18 Posts: 664 Post Likes: +941
Aircraft: Aerostar
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It would be interesting to map out the depreciation curve on different airframes.
New airplanes are expensive compared to used airplanes of the same type.
Different ends of the depreciation curve.
Used airplanes continue to depreciate until they start to appreciate.
If they are supported the high price for new (or close to new) airplanes pulls up the value of older planes, especially if those older planes have parts support.
Creating a support eco system for older Citations is a great way to add value to what would otherwise be airplanes the would be unacceptably expensive and difficult to maintain.
As Mike C has said at least a couple times, a low utilization operator can buy a lot of fuel for what one of these older planes save in terms of capital cost and insurance cost.
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 18 Apr 2024, 22:06 |
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Joined: 04/27/10 Posts: 1907 Post Likes: +849 Location: KFFZ & KGRR
Aircraft: BE36, CE501
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Username Protected wrote: 1978 0044, 0049, 0052, 0055 § 0062, 0064 § 0084, 0090, 0093, 0098, 0283 § 0285
I can add mine to that....1978 sn 501-0078
Well that checks. The little “§” symbol means “through”.
_________________ Last 60 mos: CL65 type rating, flew 121, CE680, CE525S, and CE500 type ratings.
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 19 Apr 2024, 10:04 |
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Joined: 12/16/09 Posts: 7096 Post Likes: +1963 Location: Houston, TX
Aircraft: BE-TBD
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Username Protected wrote: Yes, some of the oddball serial numbers Usually mean the airplane was exported as a 500 and then got converted to a 501 via a paperwork change Did any of the 550s go through that same dance?
_________________ QB
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 19 Apr 2024, 10:34 |
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Joined: 03/04/13 Posts: 2611 Post Likes: +1272 Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C550S
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I have a 551 that was originally built as a 550. Cessna would do it (for a fee).
Robert T
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Post subject: Re: FS: Low Time Citation 501 Single Pilot Posted: 19 Apr 2024, 10:55 |
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Joined: 03/04/13 Posts: 2611 Post Likes: +1272 Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C550S
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Often when discussing Citation v King Air or other turbo props, the issues get boiled down to fuel cost per hour. Sometimes the discussion takes into account that the Citation is 50-70+ knots faster, sometimes it does not. One of the parameters I rarely see mentioned is service ceiling. Believe me, there is a lot to be said for being able to go to 410 or higher in some models.
Robert T
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