BeechTalk - BT - Relative cost to operate a Cessna T303 (Crusader)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Sep 2023, 14:21

Curious if you had Brackett Air filters or paper on your airplanes.

It was not $3000 annual. It was for the inspector to travel to the airplane to eddy current inspect the spar. Which took a few min.

If you have any info on how the eddy current insp was eliminated I'd love to see that. I've never found where it was removed. Odd Cessna sold the owner the aluminum test standard part a few years ago and never mentioned it was not needed.

Annual is about 46 man hours roughly plus any problems found.

I've changed bolts to fix the shimmy. The newest wear point has been the cross assembly in the upper nose gear strut.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Sep 2023, 14:45

Username Protected wrote:

One thing to look out for is the cylinders. They are not "normal" 520 cylinders and I'm pretty sure they are unique to the 303 - which means they are probably rare & hard to come by.

Another difference is these engines are "hung" via rear mounts like Lycomings which means the rear case is totally different.

Makes me wonder if they were originally planning on using Lycomings.

Attachment:

20220930_153025.jpg

They look like cylinders that fit the E-225 series used in 56 and older Bonanzas and low compression IO-470K engines used in Debonairs.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Sep 2023, 19:43

Similar valve covers/ parallel valves but with tapered barrel fins like a IO-550.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 04 Sep 2023, 13:50

Username Protected wrote:

If you have any info on how the eddy current insp was eliminated I'd love to see that. I've never found where it was removed.

I looked into my files. It was only the 20 year calendar time that was eliminated for the eddy current inspection of the lower spar cap. Now, the first eddy current inspection is due at 20,000 hours and every 5,000 hours after that, which essentially means "never" for most Crusaders. There are several other parts that have required eddy current inspections but all begin at some hour limit and not calendar time. Cessna removed the calendar times by revising the Maintenance Manual.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2023, 08:21

Thanks Bob, I am working on getting latest manual revision.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 28 Sep 2023, 17:32

Does anyone have any experience with a shop in the northeast who can do the fuel inlet float valve 600 hr test for AD 95-09-13 or rents the test box?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 30 Sep 2023, 18:18

John F,
There is a T303 that recently came up for sale on my home field. N323TJ. I think it’s pretty well cared for. And has been flown. Not sure if it’s “listed” anywhere, but PM me and I can put you in contact with the owner.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Dec 2023, 10:53

Username Protected wrote:

John F,
There is a T303 that recently came up for sale on my home field. N323TJ. I think it’s pretty well cared for. And has been flown. Not sure if it’s “listed” anywhere, but PM me and I can put you in contact with the owner.

Tom,

You might want to let your friend know that whoever is brokering his T303 on TAP is doing him an incredible disservice.

It doesn't appear to have an autopilot which interests me, so no dog in the fight, but I feel like I've been dealing with a 12-year old.

There is no Spec Sheet or such on TAP so Thu I ask for one. Reply was "I'll reach out to owner".

Two days later, nothing, so I ask "is this one of these "yes honey, it's for sale" kinda things going on"?

Next day a reply, "Yes, the airplane really is for sale. How do you want to proceed"? I'm like SMH.

So yesterday, I asked, AGAIN, for a Spec Sheet.

Today, he says "I've updated the "Remarks" category to show aircraft specifications"

So, still curious, I look. This "broker" literally cut and pasted the generic T303 specs from Wikipedia and put them on the TAP ad!!!

I got a good laugh out of that. Even if this was a contender there is no way I would do any business with whoever this "broker" is. Your friend needs to fire this person right away if he wants any chance of selling.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Dec 2023, 21:45

Username Protected wrote:

John F,
There is a T303 that recently came up for sale on my home field. N323TJ. I think it’s pretty well cared for. And has been flown. Not sure if it’s “listed” anywhere, but PM me and I can put you in contact with the owner.

Tom,

You might want to let your friend know that whoever is brokering his T303 on TAP is doing him an incredible disservice.

It doesn't appear to have an autopilot which interests me, so no dog in the fight, but I feel like I've been dealing with a 12-year old.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2024, 17:39

Username Protected wrote:

If you have any info on how the eddy current insp was eliminated I'd love to see that. I've never found where it was removed.

I looked into my files. It was only the 20 year calendar time that was eliminated for the eddy current inspection of the lower spar cap. Now, the first eddy current inspection is due at 20,000 hours and every 5,000 hours after that, which essentially means "never" for most Crusaders. There are several other parts that have required eddy current inspections but all begin at some hour limit and not calendar time. Cessna removed the calendar times by revising the Maintenance Manual.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Mar 2024, 10:38

Username Protected wrote:

Bob I updated my T303 maintenance manual and what I found is the inspections changed but were not eliminated. I talked to Textron support and they confirmed that when the maintenance manual was updated to the 4-1 Jan 20 2011 edition they added inspections to Chapter 4 and Chapter 5. See page 1, 4-1-00 and 5-10-01 page 23,24,25. These inspections reference the current SID inspections which have calendar time initial inspections and recurring inspections.

According to Cessna tech support once the airplanes maintenance references this manual revision or later the inspections will now apply.

The detail that catches it is in the inspection "Operation" number. For the spar lower rear cap inspection code is "MG" which on page 6 of 5-10-00 is after the first 20,000 hrs or 20 years and 5 years or 5000 hours after that.

Sadly this appears to open up rib inspections, engine mount magnaflux, and outer spar splice inspections including spar bolt holes like the Cherokee spar inspections not previously listed in the old manual edition. We are caught because it is not an AD, SB or SL.

The T303 Type Certificate Data sheet NOTE 5 is what binds the wing structure to mandatory inspections in accordance with the applicable maintenance manual.

I checked with my FSDO and they said as long as I remain maintaining this airplane to the maintenance manual revision we have been using I can continue ONLY doing the eddy current inspection every 5 years. But once there is a reference in the logs for even unrelated maintenance tying it to the later revision that revision is now required going forward and the other wing structure inspections would apply. Possibly the engine mounts too but that one was really depressing. Every 10 years remove engines to remove mounts and magnaflux and reinstall.

I'm not sure how many airframes in the T303 fleet are using current manuals but I would strongly suggest looking for an older set and a log review to see if there were any references to manuals 2011 or later. If there is you might be unairworthy. I didn't really get a good answer from Cessna either because they said the initial inspections were due to check for corrosion and then after that it was hourly only which did not match how the manual is written.

It would seem if a particular T303 airframe falls under this 4-1 revision of Jan 2011, that the necessary inspections including R&R'ing the engines every 10 years (and other invasive inspections) would be a major hit on market value of said aircraft, and taint the value of the entire fleet.

Am I missing something?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Mar 2024, 19:36

That's exactly how I read it. Example would be Two identical airframes. one that has never had the latest manual revision noted would be much much less expensive to maintain going forward compared to one that had been inspected in accordance with the latest revision and then is stuck with the extra inspections going forward.

It is a different airplane than others because of Note 5 in the Type Certificate. This situation does not come up with typical light twins or singles.

I'll be at TAS for a T303 prebuy next week. Hopefully I can talk to Tony and see what his interpretation of this is.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 08 Mar 2024, 10:04

So does this mean you are forced to avoid using any CRS, even if on the road and AOG somewhere? Our ops specs require the use of “currently approved data” for all work. What about getting avionics or pitot/static checks done?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 08 Mar 2024, 17:34

I think it's all in how it is referenced in the log entry. I have a set of current manuals and also the original set to compare. We are Part 91. I don't know if any T303s are operated 135 now?

I don't have a repair station. I am just an independent IA.

but yes on the road or AOG I would look real hard at how any log entry is written. Keep a thumb drive with the manuals needed in the airplane. If it is a computer subscription service then it is likely the latest revision.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 29 Mar 2024, 18:50

Username Protected wrote:

That's exactly how I read it. Example would be Two identical airframes. one that has never had the latest manual revision noted would be much much less expensive to maintain going forward compared to one that had been inspected in accordance with the latest revision and then is stuck with the extra inspections going forward.

It is a different airplane than others because of Note 5 in the Type Certificate. This situation does not come up with typical light twins or singles.

I'll be at TAS for a T303 prebuy next week. Hopefully I can talk to Tony and see what his interpretation of this is.

Admittedly this is confusing. Did you get a chance to talk to Tony at TAS? They have been doing my Annuals for years. Also, I think Mike Busch could definitively answer this question.