banner
banner

24 May 2025, 16:19 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


B-Kool (Top/Bottom Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 245 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 17  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 10:06 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 12/29/12
Posts: 670
Post Likes: +261
I watched the video again…. It says the first of a new generation of airplanes. I drool over the m600, now the m700 but wonder what they have in the pipeline?

Rgs

Patrick


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 11:17 
Offline



 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 7946
Post Likes: +10288
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
I get the allure of a new airplane, but for $4M bucks I’m getting a 3-4 year old TBM 930!

We just acquired a 930 for a client in Louisianna in December, man what a machine!


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 12:02 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/02/15
Posts: 3754
Post Likes: +2590
Location: Fresno, CA (KFCH)
Aircraft: T210M
Username Protected wrote:
I get the allure of a new airplane, but for $4M bucks I’m getting a 3-4 year old TBM 930!

We just acquired a 930 for a client in Louisianna in December, man what a machine!


Not to mention a WIDE gap between the way the respective companies approach customer engagement.

_________________
G3X PFD, G3X MFD, G5, GFC500, GTN750xi, GTN650xi, GTX345

Previous: TBM850/T210M/C182P
APS 2004


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 12:10 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 07/10/10
Posts: 1068
Post Likes: +775
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
Username Protected wrote:
Not to mention a WIDE gap between the way the respective companies approach customer engagement.

What do you mean by this?

_________________
----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 12:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/20/15
Posts: 642
Post Likes: +361
Location: KFAT
Username Protected wrote:
Wouldn't the drag drop significantly regardless of the airframe? Given our mpg doesn't change, that would imply the BSFC drops significantly with lower power. My understanding is the advantage of the fixed shaft is that it is more efficient at the one speed it operates at, at the expense of operating efficiently at lower power. I don't know what happens to the extra air when power is pulled back, but the compressor is still pulling the same power out of the turbine section at lower power settings (again, someone correct me if I am wrong). The original design was out of an APU as Cliff Garrett was very concerned about the liability of an aircraft engine, and let P&W get a head start on the market which they never caught up to.

The stillborn Kestrel, which I believe is just a stretched Epic, was going to have a TPE331.


You're right about both: low power BSFC and less drag going slower. My point was that you can still increase range pulling back a 331 (or PT6) because it's a sliding scale of increasing BSFC against increasing L/D. The PT6 suffers the same, but maybe less.

Look at the max range on a 441 with TPE331s and max range on a King Air 350 with PT6s. Not too different looking.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 12:30 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/02/15
Posts: 3754
Post Likes: +2590
Location: Fresno, CA (KFCH)
Aircraft: T210M
Username Protected wrote:
Not to mention a WIDE gap between the way the respective companies approach customer engagement.

What do you mean by this?


I mean one company is fully engaged with the owners of the product they build.
_________________
G3X PFD, G3X MFD, G5, GFC500, GTN750xi, GTN650xi, GTX345

Previous: TBM850/T210M/C182P
APS 2004


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 13:33 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/05/16
Posts: 3137
Post Likes: +2283
Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
You're right about both: low power BSFC and less drag going slower. My point was that you can still increase range pulling back a 331 (or PT6) because it's a sliding scale of increasing BSFC against increasing L/D. The PT6 suffers the same, but maybe less.

Look at the max range on a 441 with TPE331s and max range on a King Air 350 with PT6s. Not too different looking.


Does anyone have a similar chart or table for an M600?

The difference in range on a 441 is 5%, the king air is about 10%, but the difference in range on an M600/700 is nearly 40%. What accounts for that difference?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 18:56 
Offline



 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 7946
Post Likes: +10288
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
You're right about both: low power BSFC and less drag going slower. My point was that you can still increase range pulling back a 331 (or PT6) because it's a sliding scale of increasing BSFC against increasing L/D. The PT6 suffers the same, but maybe less.

Look at the max range on a 441 with TPE331s and max range on a King Air 350 with PT6s. Not too different looking.


Does anyone have a similar chart or table for an M600?

The difference in range on a 441 is 5%, the king air is about 10%, but the difference in range on an M600/700 is nearly 40%. What accounts for that difference?


Marketing! :lol:

Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 19:58 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/16/15
Posts: 3383
Post Likes: +4867
Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
Not sure where the 40% number comes from. Unless I misspoke somewhere. I have said that you can gain about 20% range by pulling the power back. I don't have a full POH, so not sure if there is a graph like above somewhere, but this table shows the difference in specific range at 3 different power settings. There are many different power settings that you can choose between max and LRC. Typically in cruise I see about 1 nm per lb of fuel which makes an eyeball of range easy as pounds in the tank equals mile until worst case fuel exhaustion. Of course I select fuel over destination as one of my windows on the MFD, but the math is easy. What is missing on this table are the normal cruise power settings, which is what I use. A little less than maximum cruise.

Attachment:
1.jpg


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Chuck Ivester
Piper M600
Ogden UT


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 20:21 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/05/16
Posts: 3137
Post Likes: +2283
Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
Not sure where the 40% number comes from. Unless I misspoke somewhere. I have said that you can gain about 20% range by pulling the power back. I don't have a full POH, so not sure if there is a graph like above somewhere, but this table shows the difference in specific range at 3 different power settings. There are many different power settings that you can choose between max and LRC. Typically in cruise I see about 1 nm per lb of fuel which makes an eyeball of range easy as pounds in the tank equals mile until worst case fuel exhaustion. Of course I select fuel over destination as one of my windows on the MFD, but the math is easy. What is missing on this table are the normal cruise power settings, which is what I use. A little less than maximum cruise.


The M700 is advertised as having a 1,852nm range, which is about 40% more than the range at high speed cruise.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 20:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/14/09
Posts: 819
Post Likes: +312
Location: Boise, ID
Aircraft: 06 Meridian,SuperCub
Username Protected wrote:
I get the allure of a new airplane, but for $4M bucks I’m getting a 3-4 year old TBM 930!

We just acquired a 930 for a client in Louisianna in December, man what a machine!


Not to mention a WIDE gap between the way the respective companies approach customer engagement.

And a wide range in maintenance costs too.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 20:37 
Offline



 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 7946
Post Likes: +10288
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:

Not to mention a WIDE gap between the way the respective companies approach customer engagement.

And a wide range in maintenance costs too.


That is true. TBM’s are expensive to maintain!

Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 20:56 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/16/15
Posts: 3383
Post Likes: +4867
Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
Username Protected wrote:
The M700 is advertised as having a 1,852nm range, which is about 40% more than the range at high speed cruise.


Maybe I missed it. Didn't see the advertised high speed cruise range on the website??

_________________
Chuck Ivester
Piper M600
Ogden UT


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700?
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2024, 22:12 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/03/20
Posts: 93
Post Likes: +81
Aircraft: Citation Mustang
When I owned the Meridian I was famous for stretching range but I never flew slow as Piper max range speed. As I recall that is less than 200 kts. When Chuck refers to 20 percent he is talking about a practical speed that I used. When Piper quotes max range they are so slow it would literally be less time to make a fuel stop. The range of the M600 is whatever your personal endurance can handle times 250.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Maybe New Piper Offering - M700??
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2024, 01:15 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/05/16
Posts: 3137
Post Likes: +2283
Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
The M700 is advertised as having a 1,852nm range, which is about 40% more than the range at high speed cruise.


Maybe I missed it. Didn't see the advertised high speed cruise range on the website??


I'm not sure where I saw that (not their website), I thought it was in the thread but now I can't find it. I thought the range at high speed cruise was under 1,100nm, but maybe I have that wrong.

Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 245 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 17  Next



PWI, Inc. (Banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2025

.dbm.jpg.
.holymicro-85x50.jpg.
.ocraviation-85x50.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.mcfarlane-85x50.png.
.aerox_85x100.png.
.KingAirMaint85_50.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.Elite-85x50.png.
.b-kool-85x50.png.
.rnp.85x50.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.puremedical-85x200.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2021-11-22.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.tempest.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.concorde.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.performanceaero-85x50.jpg.