The Citation has more than TWICE the engine exposure.

A. There are two of them.

B. They have MUCH more expensive components and LLC's.

I'm just pointing out what's being left out.

Because it makes the jet look much, much better.

Nobody shopping for a new M600 is going to look twice at a 560, and nobody shopping for a 560 is going to get anywhere near a Piper dealership.

There is some great info in this thread on jets. It would be even better if we could bring in info on real-world competitive turboprop airframes that a potential 501, 550 or 560 owner might consider.

Chip

It's odd you don't mention the exposure of the PT-6 since you were so worried about everyone having all the data.

What are the stats on PT-6 Failure compared to jet engines like the JT15?

Also yes my jet has two engines so if one fails it's a non event. If a PT-6 fails in a SETP it's a problem. I do not worry about engine failure in my plane. There is a cost for that and I think well worth it. How many Citations have crashed off field because of engine failures?


But personally I don't care about exposure from major engine issues, I don't have any. I pay $25K a year for that insurance. For me it's worth the $25K a year to not have a $500k event. Will I end up paying more in the long run, yes just like most insurance programs. We all can choose what level of exposure we take on.

Every Aircraft has lots of exposure, nobody is saying they don't. For Mike C the risk of engine failure is pretty low and one he is willing to take. Chuck is willing to take the risk of his PT-6 failing and turning his plane into a glider over the mountains at night, It's also very low risk.

Mike

Chip’s original post. He clearly states a legacy citation IS AS economical to own as any turbo prop except jet prop /meridian and maybe piaggio and eclipse. AT similar acquisition costs and excluding extraordinary unexpected expenses.

Seems to me the legacy citation guys including me agree.

When figuring in capX, we really agree.

Thanks for making a strong case for the old Citation Chip.

Because it makes the jet look much, much better.

Nobody shopping for a new M600 is going to look twice at a 560, and nobody shopping for a 560 is going to get anywhere near a Piper dealership.

And that's why we always include engine reserves in DOC's, to not do so is disingenuous.

In the case of your airplane and the vast majority of the entire Citation fleet, that is done by way of the engine program, for all other Citations it is included as reserves.

At $1200 an hour, Mike C. is leaving the engine reserves out completely. You can't do that and call it a fair comparison.

Here's a Conquest II for $700,000 with engines a few years from TBO. The panel could be upgraded but it just fine as-is.

https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... p-aircraft

THAT is a valid comparison to today's 501s, etc. Maybe we can get someone to intelligently comment on that plane - other than someone who thinks RVSM on a 441 isn't worth it.

Looking at my fuel prices today. Not much competition for fuel at Destin. 7.82 per gallon. 710 gallons would be $5552 in fuel costs in the V. I am looking at financial mitigation strategies short of taking out a second on my home. Prob going to get enough fuel to be polite and waive ramp and handling fees, and stop in Tulsa for some $4 fuel. These prices are a little crazy. Especially when gas here is 2.99 cash price at the station next to our resort.

And that's why we always include engine reserves in DOC's, to not do so is disingenuous.

In the case of your airplane and the vast majority of the entire Citation fleet, that is done by way of the engine program, for all other Citations it is included as reserves.

At $1200 an hour, Mike C. is leaving the engine reserves out completely. You can't do that and call it a fair comparison.

I've always thought of op cost and acquisition cost like a seesaw, as one goes up the other usually goes down.

People typically lean one way or the other, and that does not make either of them wrong or illogical.

When I sold airplanes I really didn't understand this, I couldn't figure out for the life of me why someone would buy a brand new King Air instead of the one that I had... my airplane carried more, had better avionics, new paint and interior, maybe even Blackhawks... AND it was half of the cost of a new one.

A Citation V? Oh my gosh, talk about frustrating! We had a 7000 hour Ultra, two corporate owners, new paint and interior, 0/0 since overhaul... and people are spending more to get a CJ? What the heck? More for a little toy Mustang? What is wrong with these people!

Sales people invariably focus on selling what they have. When you step away and listen to an aircraft buyer, understand their logic and motivations, you begin to see the big picture. For some people low acquisition cost is paramount, others may spend more to get more. We recently had a client hire us to buy an M2, through the process they switched to a CJ3+... that's a big jump in acquisition cost and only a moderate increase in range, people and performance. Once they decided to spend that kind of money, a new opportunity presented itself, 50% ownership in a 2022 Phenom 300E...

Stupid? A casual observer might think so, an M2 guys would say "you should have just stayed with the M2" Mike would say "you should have bought a 560, hell any 560"

Others would say "with that kind of budget why in the world would you buy half an airplane"

I know each and every one of the deciding factors and they are doing what makes the most sense.

There is so much that goes into the decisions, so many factors, most of us think someone doesn't know what they are doing because we don't have all of the information they have.

Wait $1200 an hour? How is that possible? I pay $400 an hour total for my engine program. You are saying a JT15 is 3x just for reserves?

And you say Mike C plays with numbers?

Mike

Oh got it. I misread that and thought you are saying his engine reserve should be $1200

How much should his engine reserves be? How much should an engine and prop reserve be on a Meridian?

Mike

One more parable about acquisition cost.

During the pandemic, Amy and I had a discussion about buying gold as a hedge against financial crisis, I said if we had an extra $10k what would you do, she of course replied "buy gold" and then I said if we had an extra $100k what would you do? She replied the same, to which I said, no we'd buy a 182, it's just like gold, you can always get your money back out of it... but you also get to use it.

I wish I had been smart enough to act on that nugget of advice.

The point is that a lot of people are sitting on piles of cash, some of those folks decide to park those funds in airplanes. You'd be shocked how many multi-million dollar airplanes our clients pay cash for. (we also help our clients get financing, so I'm not implying all of our clients have money to pay cash)

$340 an hour for the Citation V

Probably $150 an hour for the Meridian.

That’s nuts. I pay $385 total for my Williams program. Everyone says I am getting ripped off and you are saying reserves alone on a pair of JT15 is the same? Something does not add up.

Mike