I've watched this thread develop with dismay. Cutting the personal attacks out and trying to parse through the information, as a reasonably neutral observer, I come to the following conclusions.

Mike T, Mike C, and Mike P are all operating their legacy Citations with great attention to managing costs and using vendors and maintenance practices that are "budget aware." And I applaud them all for it. Mike C has found a local guy who, to all presented data, does quality work and keeps his plane flying. I don't see anybody here who is claiming that they (the Mikes) are providing false data about costs nor is anyone claiming that their aircraft management practices are unsafe. And to be clear, if I were to operate a 501 (or something similar) I hope I would do it as well and as frugally as these men have. I like being involved in my aircrafts' management.

Chip makes his living by inspiring confidence in his clients that he can find a good plane that fits their mission and that his information (about aircraft ownership and management) is to be trusted. Therefore, he has to provide solutions that are widely replicable and highly reliable. Notice I did not say anything about inexpensive. His job is about confidence, education, and reduced effort for his clients.

There are LOTS of buyers out there for whom cost is a factor, but they are willing to pay a substantial premium for that confidence they're making a good choice, education on how to go about aircraft ownership, and reduced effort (to find alternative vendors and methods of achieving a given goal).

I'll use Mike C as an example of an alternate process - simply because I've seen more of his details posted on this site than the others. Mike C has invested a substantial amount of his own effort finding a cost-effective training alternative to Flight Safety. He has done mountains of his own research about the maintenance history on the 560. He has found his own, local maintenance provider. In short, through his own effort, research, and education, Mike C has found another way to own and operate a jet. And it is dramatically less expensive than owning one without ever thinking rigorously about cost control. I believe there is a slight increase of risk with this model (engines not on a program) but it is relatively small.

While Mike C and Mike P (and the local bad-habit-enabler Mike T) have shown us all what is possible, I think it is worth remembering that they are not typical jet consumers. They want to be involved, they want to be personally educated, and they have the ability to do so.

Chip's business model replaces that effort (and tolerance to absorb risk) with increased cost. He has to use/recommend shops that are supposed to be clearly above reproach. He has to recommend keeping engines on plan. His recommend way of owning a jet is completely different and not nearly as value-conscious. And it costs more. And there are COUNTLESS people just itching to spend their money doing so. Just look at the delivery of the 500th Cirrus Jet this week. It is made for people that value money much less than other priorities. Confidence that the jet-owning experience will work out exactly as expected is much more important than the last couple of hundred thousand dollars. That's crazy to me - but it's their money. And they really are out there.

So for the love of god, can you all please just accept that there is a market for both approaches. It's doesn't make the other side of the value spectrum wrong - it just makes them different with different priorities. How is that the combatants in this group can't see that? And accept it?

Zeke

And the people said, "Amen".

Zeke

Well said. Thank you.

Chip is just mad his name is not Mike. Hehe

Mike

Back to the original title of the thread...what does a Citation V that's appropriate for a frugal involved owner go for these days? There are 11 listed on controller, and not one has a price.

There are two Meridians on controller for under $1M.

And before anyone says "Don't shop on controller" - I'm just trying to compare apples and apples. If one model on controller is priced higher than the "real" market, then the other is as well.

Nah, I'm just here fighting against misinformation.

I called Duncan... they said no way.

If you want to prove they are lying, go ahead and post that $65k quote.

The price range for V's is in the low $1M's to mid $2M's

We're putting a pretty decent airplane under contract just above the mid $1M's and found a beautiful low time airplane that had a full Garmin panel and low time engines that we could buy in the low to mid $2M's. It was high pedigree and had been maintained at Textron since 2017. Unfortunately, the owner decided the only upgrade was a $7M CJ4 so he elected to keep the V.

Chip

I will get the quote. A guy helping me with maintenance that no longer works with me got it. But I will ask him. He got quotes from Duncan, WestStar, Keystone, and X Jet.

I love how you call everyone a liar. In my experience someone that thinks everyone is lying does so because they themselves are always lying so they assume others are.

You think everyone is giving misinformation. Why would a guy like me do that? I have nothing to hide or protect. Neither does Mike C. Ironic that you think we are the ones lying.

Mike

I'm not saying you're lying, I just don't think Duncan quoted a 1-4 at $65k, it doesn't make any sense. They wouldn't do that because they didn't want the work, they would just tell you no.

Is it possible they quoted $6.5k and this guy emailed you and forgot the decimal?

There is a lot of misinformation that has been thrown around, Duncan is one of our vendors and a very good company, yes they are high, but not stupid high, so when you make what appears to be a wrongful claim about them, I'm going to call you on it.

I'm not trying to disparage anyone, but that $65k is a pretty outlandish number.

Do any owner/operators of legacy citations carry insurance for Canada or Mexico? There's not much point to a plane that can go more than 2,000 nm if it can't leave the US.

Nah, I'm just here fighting against misinformation.

I called Duncan... they said no way.

If you want to prove they are lying, go ahead and post that $65k quote.

You know what Chip? You just won't let (your Ego) go. Jeez.The hole you dig just keeps getting deeper. Like you and wrong way. Jeez. You see a real pro like Denise Wilson on here talking trash? Like Mike T said all a broker needs is a cell phone.

Nice post Zeke. You nailed it in words. And Mike P is right; why would a busy jet shop getting $300/hr even want to stoop down to a legacy? They aren't scaring us away. They're just practicing good business.

BTW. I love the chaos ( As Scott Peck "A different Drum") of this thread. It just brings out more information.

Chip

I will get the proof. Just busy working and flying my trailer park Jet around. In Van nuys heading home tonight. Tomorrow I will get the docs to shut you up. Hopefully after that you will mind your own business and stop calling people liars.

Doubt that will happen but I can hope.

Mike

Although it will seriously cut into my morning coffee entertainment if it stops...

Chip-

If they quoted that, you'll get an apology from me and I'll make sure someone from Duncan calls and apologizes as well.

I never called you a liar, I just said I didn't believe they quoted you that. I asked if maybe the guy who got you the quote messed up, that's actually the most likely scenario. I find that most issues like this are miscommunication.

Bunch of thin-skinned insecure jet elite. I’ll stick with my rope-start piston.