BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 17 Oct 2023, 15:41

Sky Way is on the middle to higher end for legacy Citations.

I have been paying just less than the Sky way prices for most major inspections.

But I guess Chip says I am not getting real inspections and just pencil whips. LOL.

Mike

Username Protected · **Posted:** 17 Oct 2023, 21:55

Username Protected wrote:

500/501/550/560 Facts based on having owned 80+ of these and written every single check with my own hand, parted out 15+, rebuilt 50+ engines and done countless Phase 1-5s.

Engines:
-A midtime used 1A or -4 with a fresh hot is 200-250K to buy now, usually exchange
-A midtime used -5A is $350K exchange
-A freshly hotted timed out on condition motor is $150-175K with good blades
-No one is overhauling anymore but it's $300-450k to overhaul at an ITI/Hale sort of shop.
-Impeller is $60K to replace
-A disk of on condition blades is $75-100K
-An overhauled HT stator is $20-30K outright
-You can regrow short blades for $497 each (71 blades)
-It's 20K to remove and redisk a high turbine disk.
-It's about $2000 a piece to weld a small exit duct, large exit duct and combustion liner
-It's 10-17K to weld a cracked up high turbine stator
-A clean hot section is about $25K now, a really dirty one needing blades could be $150K. Absolutely no difference in quality between a Standard Aero and a quality independent shop, just the price.
-Ignitor box, $2500-5000
-A new to you front fan is $10K

Airframe:
-Replacing a front or side windshield costs $7500 for the part and about 25-35 hrs each
-Replacing a back window is $900 and takes about 5 hours each after interior removal
-An air cycle machine costs about 12K used and is 15-17 to overhaul
-Air cycle machine turbo is about 5K and is usually the failure
-Freon system pretty easy to repair, usually a motor or compressor running 2-5K
-Pressurization controller 5K
-Engine gauge, $2,500
-Never see corrosion issues
-Actuators costs about 2-5K
-A Phase 1-4 takes two men about a week to do properly
-A Phase 5 takes two men about 10 days to do properly
-Paint is about 45K
-An interior is 60-80K
-A Phase 49 is about $1000
-oxygen hydro $100
-Nitrogen hydro $175
-Fire bottles with new squibs about $800
-New nitrogen bottle, $7500
-New oxygen bottle, $2500
-Brakes, $1750 a side
-Tire, $1300 each for mains, $900 for nose
-Wheel, 5-7.5K
-Antiskid sensor, $2500
-Fix antilock brake motor, $5K
-replace TR actuator or speed brake actuator, $2,500
-Anti-ice valve, $2,500
-Deice boot, $7500 installed for a wing and $3-4K for a tail boot.
-Deice boot ejector valve, $1000

Avionics
-Replace RVSM computer, usually $500 unless you have a Shadin system then it's $5K
-HSI/ADI, $2,500
-Inverter $800
-ASI, VSI, etc. $1000
-An RVSM check is about $1,500
-Autopilot rarely breaks, a computer is 2-5K, a servo is 2K
-Install two 750s, $60Kish depending on the shop
-Install full Garmin panel, Under $300K
-Lighting inverter, $500
-Autopilot preselector, $2,500
-Standby gyro, $1,500
-Generator control unit, $2,500
-Starter gen, overhauled, $1800
-Pressurization solonoid valve, $5,500
-Ailerons, flaps, and airframe parts are cheap
-10K hour inspection, $15K, much much cheaper on the 560.
-Broken Step, $5K

Operating/Owner Costs

-Fuel 150 GPH for a 501, 165 for a 550, 190 for a 560, BLOCK
-120, 140, 180 respectively max power cruise altitude
-90, 110, NO idea for the 560 long range cruise
-Maintenance, me, owning a shop and having near free parts, under 10K a year
-You, basic shop assuming $100/hour, $25K a year
-You, Gold plated sort of shop, $60K a year
-Insurance, 10-30K a year depending on YOU and the plane

---------------------
Narrative: I think you're going to find that these airplanes are extremely well made and rarely break. They are built like little airliners. They like to be flown and do not like to sit. The parts cost I outlined are for serviceable used parts. I haven't found the parts to cost more than any other brand of aircraft and I find they consume less parts on average than a pressurized twin recap. They aren't finicky machines.

Most common squawks I see AND don't see on these:

1) anti-ice idiot light system is complicated. Everything heats but the lights don't extinguish. The solenoid valves can fail if not flown regularly.
2) Rarely see pressurization issues
3) Freon systems are usually neglected on ALL airplanes, including these, usually an expansion valve, leak or receiver dryer
4) Rarely see autopilot issues, it's usually the preselector
5) Missing digits on engine gauges, most live with it
6) Rarely see boot issues, almost never
7) Battery lasts 3-4 years and then fails a cap check, $3,500
8) Oxygen systems can leak, unplug your masks and leave on crew when shutdown
9) Missing placards, $500 for the kit
10) Virtually never see any corrosion of a serious nature
11) Frayed accessory control cable, $1000, rare but I see it.
12) lots of relays and can lose one occasionally; under $1K to replace usually
13) Stator valve (engine), $2,500

--------------------------------

Whatever it costs, it's totally worth it. They are smooth, fast, quiet, safe and enjoyable. If the possibility of any of these numbers scares you then it's not for you. When I see an airplane with a bunch of squawks, it usually means the owner didn't care and ran it into the ground. Now, I am seeing a lot of time and love going back into these machines.

Dip your toes in the water, it's nice.

Wonderful post, thank you MT! (Satisfied customer here too)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 17 Oct 2023, 22:09

Username Protected wrote:

Chip

Correct I can’t let it go. Ironically neither can you.

Answer the question. How many Phase 5 inspections on a Legacy Citations have you paid for out of your own pocket?

And now you are saying if someone does a Phase 5 for $30k they didn’t do it right. Interesting.

And BTW I didn’t know Mike C said you fear monger. I came up with that on my own. LOL.

Mike

Here’s what you do big boy, you call the guys at Skyway and ask them what a phase 5 cost. Then you call Rusty at East Texas Turbines, then call Bryson over at TAS and Scott at Stevens.

Let us know what they say.

I know the answer because I just made those calls this week.

Four people against hundreds…

And yes, I will unequivocally say that any phase 5 inspection done at a shop with a flat rate of $30k is going to be a lot more than that if the inspection is done properly. There are shops out there that will pencil whip the heck out of an inspection, but that doesn’t count. If you guys are getting your phase 5’s done at Tarver’s shop for $30k then more power to you, I’m shocked that he doesn’t have 50 airplanes on his ramp waiting to get in.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 17 Oct 2023, 22:13

What I've learned from reading this entire thread tonight is that I would never ever do business with Chip Mcclure, based on his incessant, pervasive, nonstop argumentative rhetoric that only seems to just make him appear to be a difficult person to work with. Everyone else in this thread seems to be reasonable & sane, I need to go have a drink now.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 17 Oct 2023, 23:16

Username Protected wrote:

What I've learned from reading this entire thread tonight is that I would never ever do business with Chip Mcclure, based on his incessant, pervasive, nonstop argumentative rhetoric that only seems to just make him appear to be a difficult person to work with. Everyone else in this thread seems to be reasonable & sane, I need to go have a drink now.

Are you serious? Is that your 6th drink?

I don't visit BT daily like I used to. When I do it makes me sad.

In the old days (2009-2019-ish) the turbine guys were the most mature, you could always count on them for good advice. King Air/Hawker/Citation/Conquest/Commander/Merlin/Pilatus owners...never petty (for the most part) good discussion, highly argumentative, but respectful. The new owners of the same planes that replaced those guys are petty and childish. I'm shocked by you guys.

Tarver's past rep is well documented here. I'm glad he's doing well now, but there's fair reason for distrust. Ciholas is Ciholas, he's being as honest as can be, but his favorite plane may change tomorrow. Pyle is just trying to bring the Citation experience to the trailer park.

Class is gone in turbine ownership.

From what I see and hear, Chip does a great job in his niche.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 00:46

Username Protected wrote:

Your engines have 10,000 hours TT and not 40,000TT?

There are four different inspections which trigger at 10,000 hours airframe time.

Phase 15 (vertical stabilizer)
Phase 16 (cabin door and engine support)
Phase 17 (cockpit and cabin structure)
Phase 67 (wing spar lugs)

Those are the four I have been through.

Quote:

And the 4 "10,000 hour" inspections are really just the hour based inspections and they happen at 1200, 3000, 4000 and then 10,000 again? Or do they increase in frequency as the plane flies more, 10,000 is done, then your next inspection is 4,000 then 3,000 then 1,200?

Of the four inspections, they have intervals of:

Phase 15 10,000 hours and then every 4000 hours.
Phase 16 10,000 hours, then 15,000 hours, and then every 3000 hours.
Phase 17 10,000 hours and then every 10,000 hours.
Phase 67 10,000 hours and then every 1200 hours.

So this set of inspections occur in 4000, 5000, 10,000, and 1200 hours from now.

I had forgotten phase 16 had a second interval of 5000 hours before it goes to 3000 hours.

Phase 15 and phase 67 require special equipment (NDT) and there is a traveling service that comes to my local shop to do that. Phase 16 and phase 17 are normal inspections any shop can do.

All told, about $8K for the set, no findings, everything is good. The traveling service sad they have yet to have any findings on these tests and they have tested over 1000 airplanes, so the inspections seem to be unnecessary, thankfully.

Some legacy models have more onerous inspections than my 560.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 01:26

So the gist of it all: for example: a 501 10K all phases (with no discrepancies) ranges from say $8 k to $28k. No discrepancies. There appears to be a camp that thinks this is doable and reasonable. And another camp that says this isn’t a legit practice. Frankly I can see both sides. I mean let’s get real: $150/every 6 months to check fire extinguishers? But I am still basically clueless. Seems like if money is an issue one better be “all in” in partaking an interest in learning the specifics of maintenance and phase inspections on these planes.

Of course that seems to be how it’s worked with all my other planes. I mean one can’t just be stupid about these things that can easily take you out, physically, and materially, if you’re not careful.

Be interesting to get some true numbers on say King Airs. Their scheduled maintenance scared the heck out of me years ago.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 03:06

I suppose some aircraft brokers and dealers think I am difficult and argumentative, at least about things like properly maintained airplanes and pre-purchase inspections. I have stated quite clearly that aircraft purchasers should do a full pre-purchase inspection including phase inspections on Citations and King Airs, in the case of legacy Citations I’ve stated that whenever reasonable the phase 5 should be used as a base for the prebuy.

This practice is often in direct conflict with the way in which an aircraft dealer prefers to do business, I know because prior to starting Jet Acquisitions I worked for stocking aircraft dealers.

A little context would probably help, this argument didn’t start with this thread, and it isn’t limited to the nice folks on it either, but there’s this narrative out there in the broker community that you can’t take certain airplanes to certain shops, the certain airplane is usually whatever they are selling and the certain shop is whatever shop they don’t use.

Terms like “gold plated shops” are thrown around, we deal with a lot of maintenance facilities, I’m still looking for one that is good enough for me to consider them worthy of such a title.

The problem with the “gold plated shop” narrative is that it falls apart when you take a well maintained aircraft to a gold plated shop.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 10:02

Username Protected wrote:

The problem with the “gold plated shop” narrative is that it falls apart when you take a well maintained aircraft to a gold plated shop.

When I purchased my airplane, it had a Phase 1-4 at Elliott, and the only hours on the plane were repositioning it after that work was done

I would consider Elliott a gold plated shop- for the record

And then your favorite shop told me a phase 1-4 (used as a prebuy) on this same airplane would be $10k flat rate in labor, but budget 30-40k for the final bill

To me, that's where they acquire the unfortunate designation of "gold plated shop"

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 12:42

Chip

Just want to make sure I understand your position. You are saying there are no “gold plated” shops? Which I have never used that term.

How do you explain my quote from Duncan for a 1-4 for $65k. Just for the inspection. I think that’s what people are calling gold plated.

Absolutely there are shops that charge a premium to work on legacy aircraft. You must know this.

Mike

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 12:55

Username Protected wrote:

What I've learned from reading this entire thread tonight is that I would never ever do business with Chip Mcclure, based on his incessant, pervasive, nonstop argumentative rhetoric that only seems to just make him appear to be a difficult person to work with. Everyone else in this thread seems to be reasonable & sane, I need to go have a drink now.

Are you serious? Is that your 6th drink?

I don't visit BT daily like I used to. When I do it makes me sad.

In the old days (2009-2019-ish) the turbine guys were the most mature, you could always count on them for good advice. King Air/Hawker/Citation/Conquest/Commander/Merlin/Pilatus owners...never petty (for the most part) good discussion, highly argumentative, but respectful. The new owners of the same planes that replaced those guys are petty and childish. I'm shocked by you guys.

Tarver's past rep is well documented here. I'm glad he's doing well now, but there's fair reason for distrust. Ciholas is Ciholas, he's being as honest as can be, but his favorite plane may change tomorrow. Pyle is just trying to bring the Citation experience to the trailer park.

Class is gone in turbine ownership.

From what I see and hear, Chip does a great job in his niche.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 12:57

Username Protected wrote:

Chip

Just want to make sure I understand your position. You are saying there are no “gold plated” shops? Which I have never used that term.

How do you explain my quote from Duncan for a 1-4 for $65k. Just for the inspection. I think that’s what people are calling gold plated.

Absolutely there are shops that charge a premium to work on legacy aircraft. You must know this.

Mike

I can't speak to a phase 1-4 on a 501, but Duncan quoted us $34,580.00 for a complete pre-purchase inspection AND a phase 1-4 on a Citation V/Ultra, the break down shows $12,225.00 for the 1-4

Would you share that quote with us? I'm curious to see why they quoted it so high.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 13:02

So that might be the disconnect.

When it comes to legacy citations many of the larger shops don’t want to touch them. So they quote high to scare us away. The eco system for Legacy is very different than typical newer jets.

So you may not understand the legacy market anymore. Guys like Mike C and Tarver are fully up to date on the current market. I have only had mine for over 2 years. But I have a learned a lot.

Mike

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 13:06

Username Protected wrote:

Chip

Just want to make sure I understand your position. You are saying there are no “gold plated” shops? Which I have never used that term.

Mike

I said I haven't found any shops that earn the term gold plated, at least not from a service standpoint.

The only thing I dislike about what I do is dealing with maintenance facilities, just a few years ago they were all begging us for work, now the market has shifted, they're overwhelmed and we are begging them to get work done.

I have a Citation mechanic with 20 years of experience that we pay to oversee every prebuy, this is a hassle in expense that wasn't necessary in the past.

Brian says my "favorite shop" but I don't have a favorite shop, Stevens is only up there because they are less painful to deal with than most others.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Oct 2023, 13:07

Username Protected wrote:

So that might be the disconnect.

When it comes to legacy citations many of the larger shops don’t want to touch them. So they quote high to scare us away. The eco system for Legacy is very different than typical newer jets.

So you may not understand the legacy market anymore. Guys like Mike C and Tarver are fully up to date on the current market. I have only had mine for over 2 years. But I have a learned a lot.

Mike

I consider Citation V's legacy Citations, so not sure I follow you there...

Why don't you post the quote, if they are quoting a high number to run people off, that is very unprofessional. They should just say we don't want to do it.

Legacy Citation vs Turboprop