Chip

Congrats on the Granddaughter.

I waited to respond as I wanted to think about what they heck you are talking about. Was a real head scratcher.

So basically you are saying you have not paid for a Phase 5 with your own money but you want to. Got it. LOL So you have zero experience getting the work done on your dime.

Thanks for the offer but I do not need a Phase 5 and I know the guy that last did it did a great job. I use a shop that has a ton of experience with my model. In fact the guys that did the Phase 5 and recent 1-4 did the Sierra Eagle II Conversion.

Having a shop that finds a lot of “discrepancies” isn’t always a good thing for a legacy citation. These are not brand new aircraft and not meant to be. I have heard horror stories of shops holding legacy owner hostage trying to make the aircraft brand new. Which is not necessary. It’s important ti make sure it’s functional and safe. Cosmetics and other things not perfect can be OK. Having a shop that understands that is more important than one that’s trying to prove how powerful they are.

You are not going to understand our perspective, I think because it goes against what you sell.

Fact is there is a great community of guys doing what you say can’t be done.

Mike

Thanks Mike.

Many years ago, before I started Jet Acquisitions, I worked for stocking aircraft dealers that owned aircraft, not my money directly, but the same principle and the money we spent on maintenance effected my commission, so I was paying attention. In one case I was in the office of a shop, me and the owner were screaming so loud that people from outside the building came in to see what was going on. I haven’t had an episode like that in a long time but you can bet that I’ve had some really strong conversations with Stevens, West Star, Textron and even a few small shops.

This narrative that I just drop airplanes off and don’t are about the money because it isn’t mine, is SO wrong… just ask any of my clients.

In spite of what has been said, I treat my client’s money like it’s my own. I see zero relevance of who’s money it is paying for maintenance and believe that’s just a strategy that some on here are using to offset the fact that I have managed and been involved in dozens, maybe hundreds of Citation inspections at a variety of shops, that experience gives me far more insight into this topic than if I’d paid for a few inspections at a single shop.

I hope that in addition to this thread being quite entertaining for many, I have accomplished the goal of communicating that a legacy Citation taken to most maintenance facilities, especially for a phase 5, will likely have a healthy list of airworthy discrepancies.

When the statement was made that a phase 5 should only be a total of $30k “and the rest was the shops profit” I had to say something.

There is really no such thing as “gold plated” shops, maintenance facilities are like any other business, some are better than others, but more than anything else, they all have bad days. Yes, some have nicer facilities and more overhead, they typically charge more, but that doesn’t mean they do a better job, in fact in many cases it’s the opposite. But, it’s also true that many small shops just don’t have the manpower to get the work done properly.

In the course of business I do come across a lot of “lightly maintained” aircraft, but it is rarely the shop that is to blame, in fact I can only remember one incident where the shop was charging the owner and just not doing the work, it was a small shop and when the owner of the shop called me to apologize, he broke down and said he was overwhelmed and was just trying to keep up. The owner had given him an open checkbook and was even paying him a monthly fee to stay on top of the airplane.

In most cases it is actually the owner putting pressure on the shop that causes things to be overlooked. It’s not so much that the ignore things and I am not implying that they disregard safety of flight discrepancies, it’s just that if the shop knows the owner is going to flip out over the bill, they’re less likely to do as thorough of an inspection. It should be that all inspections are equal, but we all know they aren’t.

To help you better understand my position, I do not sell anything, I also do not and have never accepted any compensation from any maintenance facility. I do help my clients occasionally with managing phase inspections after the airplane is in service for a year, but most of the inspections we are involved in are situations where we are paying for the flat rate and the seller is paying for discrepancies. We do a really good job of explaining to the seller what their part of the bill is likely to be, that is exactly why I know so well what the cost involved are. We do typically use larger shops for prebuys because most sellers do not trust a small shop that they may feel is biased towards the buyer.

One more item, if you’re hearing stories about shops holding aircraft hostage, you should tell those folks to handle that in advance, a shop should never hold an airplane based on discrepancies (short of a safety of flight issue that would prevent a ferry permit) if the owner feels like a shop is gouging, their recourse should be to have the shop put the airplane back together and then fly it out of there.

And a final thought as we move on, if you take your aircraft to a small shop, ask for a copy of their liability and hangar keepers insurance. Maybe one of the insurance guys can chime in with details, but I am alarmed to have recently learned that there are some small shops that do not have insurance. They can’t do maintenance cheap enough to make up for that.

And that’s not a fear tactic, that’s a problem all aircraft owners should be aware of!

Too funny (not really). I came to BT umpteen years ago after a Cirrus Sevice center wanted $2500 to fix what was a loose alternator belt (stuck in Hilton Head) in a friends 172.(He notified the FAA when I borrowed a wrench) The crappola has never stopped. People really must think we’re stupid or just gullible. I’ve thrown mechanics out of my hangar; I called out a #1 Baron shop when they wanted to replace 2 cylinders they hadn’t even run hot. (They basically told me to leave and not come back) And then got hijacked over at Tarver’s place with a pickup truck guy doing an annual that insisted I needed two new cylinders on the 172 but couldn’t even remember what the compressions were.

We need more Tarver’s in this world and somehow fix this mechanics nightmare we live in. Personally I don’t see why 91 stuff can’t be done by the owner or who the eff anyway.

And lawyers and insurance companies are also ruining everything for everybody. Man we need tort reform.

In my experience, there's a much higher chance of a shop creating/causing an airworthy discrepancy than finding one on most legacy airplanes during a major inspection. In fact, I can say with great confidence that there are no killer items (safety or dollar wise) lurking in any 500 airframe.

Be careful out there, there are are some really smart mechanics for sure but in the present environment, most of the really smart kids are going into healthcare, IT or engineering so it doesn't take too much imagination to figure out the talent pool you are left with for GA maintenance.

Being a good Citation mechanic takes guidance and experience. We start our guys out parting Citations out; an experience I can assure you that you don't get working for Textron or Stevens. Someone gains tremendous knowledge from tearing things apart to learn how stuff works.

Then, knowledge comes from fixing oddball squawks and repetition of basic inspections. Efficiency comes from repetition on the same airframe everyday. Someone with lots of Hawker/Lattitude and CJ experience may know virtually nothing about a 501.

The main benefit to using a smaller shop is the acceptance of used parts. There are little valves and doohickeys on these birds that might cost 10-100X new more a used part costs. You can ratchet up a pretty outrageous bill with $25K parts that you could have bought used for $1000.

Mike

This is very true, I did have a situation with a tail deice relay on a Beechjet 400A, $25,000 from Textron, we found one at Alliance Airparts for $2200

Amazing thing is the shop that wouldn’t install the ARA part, parked the aircraft outside when everything else was done and the next day they tested the tail deice and it worked.

Chip

Your post was too long, not reading it. Pretty sure there is nothing more I can learn from you. I think we can agree to disagree. You do you boo.

Mike

And here I was being so verbose in my praise of you!

I think the thing you hate about me the most is the fact that you can’t help but like me!

And only Aubie calls me Boo.

Then there are posts that are short, easy reads, but where you wish the person didn't feel the need to say something they should have just kept to themselves.

And here I was being so verbose in my praise of you!

I think the thing you hate about me the most is the fact that you can’t help but like me!

And only Aubie calls me Boo.

When the boxing gloves come off I look forward to returning to this thread.

It could also be the more attention you give them the more they keep swinging. Best let them go into a corner to themselves and let them have at it. Quite the distraction really.

Chip,I agree and I am with 4 this weekend and there is #8 on the way from 3 of my children.The airplanes make all of my grandchildren much closer throughout the year.

So correct me if I’m wrong but things really go south cost wise at 10K hrs.

Wait, sorry to back up on the thread, but Chip, what do I need to post about you on BeechTalk to get this same offer?

[/quote]

So correct me if I’m wrong but things really go south cost wise at 10K hrs.[/quote]

There are extra inspections at 10k. But those happened before I bought my plane. So someone else took that hit.

After 10k there are some extra inspections like the NDT I have to do this week. It’s every 1200 after 10k. But it’s under $1000. So not a huge deal.

If i add up all the inspections I need annually it’s about $30k for all inspections and scheduled maintenance. Not cheap but not breaking the bank. Lots of SETP getting more than $30k of inspections per year.

Mike