Yes, it is. It is very nice when fuel prices spike up, too. That's my primary exposure to increased costs.


I'm sure you are less, but how far is yet to be seen.

Like I said, I could sell now and be $500K ahead of all expenses. I doubt you can do as well, so at this moment, I'm flying for less cost than you. The market may move to change that.


Surprisingly, so can I. Maybe not as short as you (I would guess), but rather shorter than I was expecting.

The adjustment for wet, snow, ice with TRs is not nearly as bad as one would think.


For per hour prices ignoring capex, probably.

For all dollars in and out, maybe not. It all depends on what the market does to your hull value, and what the cost of money is for interest, inflation, investment.

Mike C.

Don’t forget recapture

Of the 70+ Citations I've sold, I have never had one person return one and say I lead them down the wrong path. Same with running engines over TBO; it is totally common and accepted and hasn't lead to any issues. I've done over 100+ hot sections (paid for with my own money). The 2 problems I've had were easily solved by giving someone a free engine. And trust me, Pratt and Standard Aero have unlucky engines once in a while too.

And no, the net jets engines just had routine hot sections and they run without incident for 11,200 so I don't think I need to worry about the E&O insurance dropping me over stating a fact.

How is your 501 in these conditions? That is glaze ice. If you can walk to and from the plane, you can fly. Seriously the walking part is a challenge. A turboprop is almost anywhere almost any time. High, hot contaminated, short, and if you want grass, gravel, dirt. Way more capable than a Jet. Jet flies higher and faster, but has a lot of limitations.

How is your 501 in these conditions? That is glaze ice. If you can walk to and from the plane, you can fly. Seriously the walking part is a challenge. A turboprop is almost anywhere almost any time. High, hot contaminated, short, and if you want grass, gravel, dirt. Way more capable than a Jet. Jet flies higher and faster, but has a lot of limitations.

My 501 is fine for turf. Even the 560 like Mike C has uses the same gear so it's probably fine as well. Cessna probably just didn't want to bother with the certification costs (or there is some kind of weight limit for turf). There is a special kit for gravel that spins up the front wheel using vanes like a little pinwheel to keep gravel from being kicked up on initial set-down of the wheel.

Having Beta is definitely helpful in icy conditions. My fear on ice is taxiing. But if all else fails, shut down and call for a tow.

Here are a couple shots from KAXX, Angel Fire, NM. Staff is happy to plow the runway but won't do the ramp with airplanes on it. That's ~4" of snow. No issue.


And here's the runway:


If I had TRs it would be a better short field/contaminated platform but I like the simplicity, light weight, etc and for my missions I don't fly into small strips.

There is a great line that I have heard, "there are no solutions, only trade-offs." Just like cars, if there was a single perfect airplane then that is all we would fly. But our missions are different and so there are options. I regularly need 8 seats (4 adults and 4 kids aged 10-15). So the only SETP that would work for me is a PC-12. They are fantastic machines - great cabin, love that cargo door, good fuel economy, etc. But they are on the slow side, have a 6' wider wingspan, and are expensive to purchase. If my mission required more short field or rough field or hauling things that required that big door, then that would be my choice. But FOR ME, the 501 offers me the best compromise between price (capex and opex), utility, and safety. I am convinced there is nothing safer to fly than a multi-engine jet with a modern panel. But also I love to be involved in maintaining my plane. I have made a hobby out of maintenance. I truly enjoy it, it saves me money, I learn more about my plane, and I am liable to catch things before they become an issue. I also have a very competent mechanic on field who is willing to let me help out.

Biased to what exactly?

We don’t do Meridians, but we do Citations.

I am not biased, you are and you haven’t owned that Citation long enough to take a hit, but you will take a hit, $50k… $100k expect it.

And, in the big picture it’s just part of owning a jet, not a big deal.

Chip

You are biased against legacy citations.

Not sure what event I will have with my plane that’s $100k. Anything that big will most likely be and insurance event or covered by engine programs.

I have had my plane for over 2 years and have done all inspections.

With the used parts market and guys like Tarver supporting the fleet there are a lot it options.

No parts on my plane are $100k.

Mike

Mike,

We do legacy Citations.

We are handling a Citation V acquisition currently.

You are missing that my bias is against setting unrealistic expectations of ownership cost.

My main point has been that you can’t avoid the cost of engines, most of my disagreement is with Mike C. And revolves around operating cost that do not include engine reserves. If you’re on an engine program you have that covered.

I have also said unequivocally that you can “poor boy” a Citation, I was doing it before you or Mike C. ever owned a Citation and before Tarver sold his first Citation.

You are correct that I haven’t owned a Citation personally, but I have worked for three different companies that have, going back to the 1990’s

There’s no doubt that involved owners can manage the cost, but there always seems to be something. I don’t speak from ignorance, I speak from experience.

Hi Chip,

I agree with you. At some point, we will need a high pressure turbine wheel for $60k plus labor. However, 150 hours/year on TAP Blue is $60,000/year. So if I can go 2 years without taking a "hit" then I am ALREADY money ahead. Every year after that I am even more money ahead. Is it a risk? Yes, but it is a calculated one. Since I am now over 2 years of ownership I am now money ahead every month. So yes, when I need that turbine wheel it will cost me $100k but I've already saved way more than that over being on programs and if I invested the money I saved then I'm even further ahead.

Engine programs/reserves make sense if you are a business and your accounting dept wants a nice per hour charge to run against the plane. There is also an insurance aspect to being on programs. If something bad happens you are covered. They also typically do loaner or exchange engines so you have minimum downtime. That has value to someone who's airplane needs to work. Mine is purely for recreation. If it needs maintenance then we delay our family trips. So that part of programs has no value for me.

You desperately want us to account for that in our costs but it just isn't that simple. I take WAY better care of my plane than most people. I put my engine covers on every time I shut down the plane. People on programs don't because there is no cost to them if they are damaged. I am gentle on my brakes. Pro pilots don't care as they aren't paying for the maintenance. My mechanic takes care of a couple of corporate planes. They are always breaking stupid crap. A few months ago the owner's brother rode on their Longitude back from Vegas, drunk off his a$$, and broke one of the seat actuators. Probably spilled all manner of sticky corrosive beverages into the floor as well. If any one of my passengers showed up that drunk I would put them on Southwest and they would never fly with me again. Plus only water is allowed in my plane. Bottom line is that my plane is impeccably cared for and I expect it to give me a long life with minimal trouble. Other planes that are corporate, charter, dry-leased, etc are not as well cared for as my plane and they will break more often.

Sure, I could have some bad luck and something expensive could break on my plane. If that happens to any of us we will post about it and you can tell us that you told us so. But for now they are telling you what it costs to run these birds.

Finally, stop using the term "poor boy." None of us are poor and the reason we are not poor is that we don't waste money on things that don't provide us value (like being on engine programs and using factory service centers).

Oh, and for Charles. I see your SETP on ice and raise you a 501 on ice:

Hi Chip,

I agree with you. At some point, we will need a high pressure turbine wheel for $60k plus labor. However, 150 hours/year on TAP Blue is $60,000/year. So if I can go 2 years without taking a "hit" then I am ALREADY money ahead. Every year after that I am even more money ahead. Is it a risk? Yes, but it is a calculated one. Since I am now over 2 years of ownership I am now money ahead every month. So yes, when I need that turbine wheel it will cost me $100k but I've already saved way more than that over being on programs and if I invested the money I saved then I'm even further ahead.

Engine programs/reserves make sense if you are a business and your accounting dept wants a nice per hour charge to run against the plane. There is also an insurance aspect to being on programs. If something bad happens you are covered. They also typically do loaner or exchange engines so you have minimum downtime. That has value to someone who's airplane needs to work. Mine is purely for recreation. If it needs maintenance then we delay our family trips. So that part of programs has no value for me.

You desperately want us to account for that in our costs but it just isn't that simple. I take WAY better care of my plane than most people. I put my engine covers on every time I shut down the plane. People on programs don't because there is no cost to them if they are damaged. I am gentle on my brakes. Pro pilots don't care as they aren't paying for the maintenance. My mechanic takes care of a couple of corporate planes. They are always breaking stupid crap. A few months ago the owner's brother rode on their Longitude back from Vegas, drunk off his a$$, and broke one of the seat actuators. Probably spilled all manner of sticky corrosive beverages into the floor as well. If any one of my passengers showed up that drunk I would put them on Southwest and they would never fly with me again. Plus only water is allowed in my plane. Bottom line is that my plane is impeccably cared for and I expect it to give me a long life with minimal trouble. Other planes that are corporate, charter, dry-leased, etc are not as well cared for as my plane and they will break more often.

Sure, I could have some bad luck and something expensive could break on my plane. If that happens to any of us we will post about it and you can tell us that you told us so. But for now they are telling you what it costs to run these birds.

Finally, stop using the term "poor boy." None of us are poor and the reason we are not poor is that we don't waste money on things that don't provide us value (like being on engine programs and using factory service centers).

Are you buying it from Tarver?

I wonder if this has more to do with the advice you give to new owners than the intrinsic properties of the plane itself.

Your advice can be summarize basically as "if you don't buy an expensive airplane and take it to an expensive shop, it will cost you." Hmmm.

An expensive shop and a detached owner will lead to very high costs. The video you posted is an example.


The typical JT15D is about $250/hour per engine.

If I suffer an engine issue that costs me $200K (which is highly unlikely, but let's say so), that's 400 hours of JT15D program payments. I'm at almost 300 hours in my plane so far, so I have banked $150,000 of payments for the engine program I have NOT made. That's enough to potentially cover my HSI when due.

You just aren't going to have such an event that often on these engines.

I sure hope you aren't advising your C560V customer to put the engines on a program.

Things are very different when it is YOUR money you are spending. It is easy to tell others how to spend their money.


Since you haven't owned one, this must be watching your clients suffer through such things.

Mike C.

This is the blind leading the blind. The fact you find it consistent with your expectations is concerning. At least the kid admits he is new to this.

For example, he paid $3600 for four fire bottle cartridges (which have a 10 year life). You can buy them for about $300 each, or $1200 for a set and it takes less than an hour of labor to change all four. That's $120/year for that system, which isn't too bad.

BTW, the fire bottle thing on Citations is kind of useless. I dream one day of getting an STC to remove it on the basis that the Citation fleet doesn't need it based on the record. Would save some weight and some maintenance costs. But, like everyone else, I plod along having it since the incremental cost of just complying is simpler than changing the rules.

This video is a perfect example of how ignorance will cost you in aircraft ownership. A little bit of knowledge about where to get parts and work done can dramatically change the cost profile.

I couldn't stomach the presentation so I didn't watch it all, does he ever mention the shop he used? That makes a huge difference.

Mike C