We figured out that a 172rg will beat an airliner from FL to Maine. The airlines suck, I have no idea why we continue to subsidize them and bail them out. Absolutely, the only time I will submit to using them is if I’m going to pick up a small airplane or am flying far internationally, which I don’t enjoy anymore.

You forgot to add in the risk of going postal and offing everyone in the airport.

It really depends on what “prop” plane we are speaking of, the reality is that crashes caused by engine failure in a turbine single or twin is extremely rare.

I will agree that jets are the safest, but that shouldn’t imply that props are unsafe, they’re just more difficult to manage in an emergency.

I’m taking lessons in an R44, so what the heck do I know about safety!

It really depends on what “prop” plane we are speaking of, the reality is that crashes caused by engine failure in a turbine single or twin is extremely rare.

I will agree that jets are the safest, but that shouldn’t imply that props are unsafe, they’re just more difficult to manage in an emergency.

I’m taking lessons in an R44, so what the heck do I know about safety!

I am just not sure there is data to support that a part 91 single pilot owner operator jet operation, especially in a legacy jet is safer than that same pilot with the same training in a modern SETP. In both of those cases, the pilot is more likely to kill the plane, than the plane is to kill the pilot. The modern SETP’s have much better avionics, protections, like full envelope protection, automatic engagement of the autopilot if the computer detects the pilot has lost command or control, much better radar (GWX8000), landing gear alarms tied to the avionics and TAWs that are not defeatable by flap and power settings, automatic pressurization systems that will engage even if the pilot forgets to turn on bleeds, much better high, hot, contaminated runway performance, CAS messages visual and aural to prevent misconfiguration in icing conditions, Multiple large glass panel AI’s with synthetic vision that make any conditions essential day VFR with terrain, obstructions, power lines, and runways displayed on the PFD’s…. on and on. I would agree one may feel safer in a part 91 owner operator jet, but I do not believe that you can find data to support it. You can take my plane and be convinced in a cloud that you are upside down. Try to roll it over on its back and it will warn you by fighting you with the yoke, if you persist it will tell you that it is engaging the AP, and that you can take a breath and regroup. If you lose situational awareness and point it at the ground, the computer will calculate your collision rate and warn you in time to pull up. If you persist, it will engage the AP and pull you out of the dive. I flew on the same day that beautiful couple flying in the CJ lost control flying out of SLC in a Citation. I am sure they thought they were very safe in their Dino-jet, they had just left a safety meeting, but he lost situational awareness and tore the citation apart. Doesn’t happen in a modern SETP. Too much situational awareness. I have 3 big glass AI’s each with its own separate ADC and AHRS, 3 separate busses and an isolated 4th emergency buss if the other 3 fail. Just remember, the pilot is the weak link in any turbine. Which airframe is going to make up more for that weakness?

Most days, I feel like an A-type pilot. Some evenings I admit I am probably a B-type pilot. Sometimes, I am probably a full on C-pilot. I don’t think I would be safer on those days in a more complex, less technologically capable, legacy jet. That is the real world of light GA. We are human, we have pressures, we fly single pilot IMC which is the toughest aviation job out there. The new planes help and protect the pilot a lot more.

Charles
An example of the difference between Turboprops and Jets

As I understand it 10% of the TBM fleet has had accidents.

I don't know of a any Jet that has close to that record for example.

There are over 270 Eclipse's flying and there has been one fatality due to pilot incapacitation and 7 runway over runs due to pilot error so less than a 3% rate

When I grow up I want to be like Michael Tarver/George Jetson.

Chuck

Not sure what you mean by more complex legacy jet. Maybe you have not flown in a legacy jet but my 501sp is not complex. In fact it’s the simplest plane I have flown. Way more complexity in a single that you have to switch tanks or deal with a prop lever. My engines are ECU managed and do all the work. I just push the levers forward. If I lose an engine I don’t even touch anything, just fly the plane the same as normal. Not sure how it can get less complex than that.

I agree the envelope protection in more modern planes is nice. But soon we will have that available for our “legacy” jets. A full Garmin legacy jet with a digital AP will be just as advanced as your high dollar SETP, at a fraction of the price.

Mike

I am just not sure there is data to support that a part 91 single pilot owner operator jet operation, especially in a legacy jet is safer than that same pilot with the same training in a modern SETP. In both of those cases, the pilot is more likely to kill the plane, than the plane is to kill the pilot. The modern SETP’s have much better avionics, protections, like full envelope protection, automatic engagement of the autopilot if the computer detects the pilot has lost command or control, much better radar (GWX8000), landing gear alarms tied to the avionics and TAWs that are not defeatable by flap and power settings, automatic pressurization systems that will engage even if the pilot forgets to turn on bleeds, much better high, hot, contaminated runway performance, CAS messages visual and aural to prevent misconfiguration in icing conditions, Multiple large glass panel AI’s with synthetic vision that make any conditions essential day VFR with terrain, obstructions, power lines, and runways displayed on the PFD’s…. on and on. I would agree one may feel safer in a part 91 owner operator jet, but I do not believe that you can find data to support it. You can take my plane and be convinced in a cloud that you are upside down. Try to roll it over on its back and it will warn you by fighting you with the yoke, if you persist it will tell you that it is engaging the AP, and that you can take a breath and regroup. If you lose situational awareness and point it at the ground, the computer will calculate your collision rate and warn you in time to pull up. If you persist, it will engage the AP and pull you out of the dive. I flew on the same day that beautiful couple flying in the CJ lost control flying out of SLC in a Citation. I am sure they thought they were very safe in their Dino-jet, they had just left a safety meeting, but he lost situational awareness and tore the citation apart. Doesn’t happen in a modern SETP. Too much situational awareness. I have 3 big glass AI’s each with its own separate ADC and AHRS, 3 separate busses and an isolated 4th emergency buss if the other 3 fail. Just remember, the pilot is the weak link in any turbine. Which airframe is going to make up more for that weakness?

Most days, I feel like an A-type pilot. Some evenings I admit I am probably a B-type pilot. Sometimes, I am probably a full on C-pilot. I don’t think I would be safer on those days in a more complex, less technologically capable, legacy jet. That is the real world of light GA. We are human, we have pressures, we fly single pilot IMC which is the toughest aviation job out there. The new planes help and protect the pilot a lot more.

That is a good looking panel. I’m not down on legacy jets, just calling out that there really is no data to suggest they are safer for a single owner operator pilot flying day in and day out in a modern SETP. The TBM is a hot rod, and Socata gave up some handling behavior to get that performance. It is definitely not as forgiving as a detuned M600, or PC 12. Good airframe, but less forgiving in the SETP world. There has yet to be a fatal in a GX000 Meridian/M500 or M600. There are more of those airframes flying, than mustangs, P100’s or eclipses all of which have registered fatals. Could be one today or tomorrow, and I knock on wood. Sometimes it’s just wrong place wrong time, but apples to apples, they certainly are not an outlier. Anyone of us that hides behind perceived safety in our turbine aircraft, just have to remember if we are ever involved in a plane crash, nine times out of 10 it’s going to be our fault.

What's the AP available in that upgrade?

Chip-

What model unit did you have? Wondering if it is a Halon 1211 type.

Mike C.

What's the AP available in that upgrade?

Chip-

Charles,
Using the FAA database it seems that there are 204 M600's and the ASN database lists 11 accidents or a 5% rate. So yes it's had more accidents then Eclipse's have

Cirrus pilots are proving this is not 100% protection from idiocy or incompetence

They still find ways to crash despite having all of this