This is my biggest challenge.

On my field, I have a choice of 1 (one) mechanic.

If he's not the guy, then I'm flying for any A&P work or signoff and both my cost savings and time savings are gone.

Those of you who have the really low costs? Part of it is luck. You have a good mechanic on the field.

Your incomplete notes are not surprising.

Bought new by SC Johnson in 1991 and operated until 2012. Maintained at Milwaukee Textron Service Center. They put 8500 hours on it during their ownership as a daily driver for corporate missions.

Bought by WR Equipment in 2012 and operated until I bought it in 2020. Maintained at Stewart Textron Service Center.

Mike C.

Not at all.

It is a matter of public record. The plane passed through two dealers in a matter of a few days before I bought it, but otherwise it was a two owner plane since new, corporate flown, Textron maintained. I'm the third legit owner since new.

One of those dealers was Cypress, aka Tarver. He already confirmed the maintenance history was as I stated.

Mike C.

I’m not going to respond to the hyperbolic bull, other than to say that I defend… not gulp Textron because they are a vendor and a strategic partner of our company. I also have several friends that work there.

I never said they were special or any of the other insinuated crap.

When something doesn’t pass the smell test, I say so. If that seems like I’m going after Mike, so be it. I believe he leaves out information to make his cost seem lower than they are because that’s the position he took in the debate.

A prime example is leaving out engine cost for his aircraft but leaving it in on the one he’s comparing it to.

I will say that he started this thread and a result it has stayed on topic. Unlike every other thread that he hijacks and turns into a Citation V thread.

Chip

I think you are missing the point. You keep attacking the one guy that adds most of the value to the discussion of Jet ownership on this forum.

I have learned a ton of great info from Mike C and Tarver. I can’t think of a post of yours that I thought wow that was great info. Most of your post are either attacking someone like Mike C or promoting your business and ego.

You say you call it as you see it, so do I.

There is not a point that Mike C try’s to make that you don’t hate on. To be honest I don’t know how Mike keeps trying to add value to these forums with guys like you fighting him at every turn. It’s tiring.

Mike is humble and analytical. He shares all the good and the bad. But more importantly he does it to help others like me. Not because of profit or ego, but because he cares and is passionate. He wants to share what he knows.

Ironically guys like Mike C are great for your business. You just don’t get it.

Not saying Mike is perfect and I disagree with him on a few points. But I respect the hell out of him and greatly appreciate the value he adds. I am fortunate to have a plane that’s in his category of interest to get the value of his knowledge.

Mike

One aspect of the ownership & maintenance experience that you ( Ciholas, Tarver, and Pyle et.al. ) talk about is finding parts at reasonable prices. While probably best served in a separate thread, I am curious as to the methods you use. Are there any techniques that you can share?

Excellent idea. Done.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=221661

Point made, and I appreciate you making it without hyperbole. Though the “creepy” statement was a little odd.

I will endeavor to contribute more, that really is why I am here. Mike and I go back and forth and have for about eight years, I’d like to think most of it is good natured ribbing and keeping each other in check, but we are both passionate about aviation and I know those emotions often take the lead, I will try to do better.

I do actually like Mike!

I get accused of promoting my business, what you’re actually seeing is me promoting buyer advocacy and good purchasing principles. There are Beechtalkers that have hired us over the years, many more have referred clients to us and I appreciate it.
BUT, that’s not why I am here… and if it was, I’d certainly be more of a politician!

As passionate as Mike is, I’m just as passionate about providing aircraft purchasers with the (accurate) information and tips they need to make good decisions in the buying process. I gladly do that for free and will help anyone who calls.

The Op of the Phenom 300 reached out to me, ask him if I gave him advice, ask him if I ever once even mentioned him hiring us.

Having said all that, I make myself a target, I’ve always said if you stand up in a room of people and say “look at me!” Five people will clap and three will throw a rock at you.

You gotta be able to take the rocks.

Would be cool if this thread could focus on Mike's expenses rundown and experiences in ownership, I love to hear directly from airplane owners about this sort of thing, BT needs more of this kind of content

Questioning Mike's airplane history and then asking for his logbooks under the guise of offering some sort of value added scanning service sounds very "meet me at the flagpole after school"

Let's let the people who actually own airplanes talk about the experience of owning them, first hand, and not have these conversations constantly devolve into conjecture and banter, use PM's for that

Sadly, they offer kits for 500 and 550, but not 560.

They did send me a list of brake overhaul shops that handle 560 brakes, so that's useful and goes into my files.


I've bought from them a few times. I have a whole stash of Mobil Jet 254 (what the plane came with, so have to continue). 2380 is common in the field, MJ 254 is not, so I carry what I need.

Also bought some parts like ignitors and CEET ducting from them. They are hit and miss on pricing and stock.

They are among my routine places to check for new parts and supplies.

Mike C.

I think he is wrong unless you can get fire bottles REALLY cheap. I sent my fire bottle to O'Brien Enterprises (Signal Hill, CA) and they recover the contents, check the hydro test, and put the contents back in, saving a ton of money over new contents or even a new bottle. My bottle check was $425. The painful part is shipping since the bottles are haz mat, but that's true for ordering a new one, too.

Good points.

I spent as much time in training with my Mirage and 421 as I did for the 501sp. Only difference is they charge way more for jet training and you use a lot more fuel in the plane. I did my initial in the plane with the 501. Took me 3 days for the training and Check ride. Was 3 days for both my Mirage and 421 for initial, so it's the same. Just a little less stressful because when you have a check airman in the right seat the pressure goes up.

I will say the jet training made me a way better pilot than any other training. Higher standards for sure in the Jet world. Also fly way less hours in a Jet than I did in the slower planes. So yes training hours makes up a higher percentage of your flying when you move to a jet.

But for my friends and family it's way faster in the Jet. They don't have to go to training with me.

So I don't think training is a reason to shy away from a Jet. If you can afford it there is no reason to not fly a legacy citation. I will fly commercial before I go back to flying a Prop plane.

Mike

Good move. Textron sells a purpose made replacement with finished ends:

Better to make it from generic ducting and save the money.

I always try to use the double wall stuff, but this isn't that critical.


Ah, this caused me to research my cabin fire extinguisher due dates.

Every 12 months, weigh as part of phase 18 safety inspection.

Every 6 years, send to a specialty shop to drain, internal inspect, and recharge.

Every 12 years, send to a specialty shop to drain, internal inspect, hydrostat test, and recharge.

The problem is that Halon 1211 used in the C352TS is restricted and no one is allowed to recharge them. You can buy new ones only because aviation has an exception. This is why your mechanic said to buy a new one.

So now we have this odd situation that the rules try to lower the amount of Halon 1211 in the world due to its global warming potential, but in effect, the rules cause people to buy new ones every 6 years and a bunch of old ones sit around and will eventually leak out. It would be far less harmful to allow recovery and recharge than having to buy new ones all the time.

I've got a year to figure this out. Worst case I am buying two new C352TS units like you, $452/each, and I have two perfectly good used ones with no idea how to dispose of them. Best case I can find some replacement unit that doesn't use Halon 1211 and I can get a cheaper to maintain system. I'm going to ask Team Legacy at Textron to see if they have some sort of plan to switch off Halon via SB or other means (no SB covers it right now that I can find).

I hate these things that cost money and do bad things for no reason. Maybe I can find a way to change this. With a 1 year timeline, maybe I can find something.

Chris, do you have your old units? I might be interested in seeing if I can find a recharge option.

If you don't have the units, how did you dispose of them?

Mike C.

I train less in the Citation than I did in the MU2. While the course costs more, I do it less often, so I had a net reduction in training costs (and time invested) over the MU2. I feel similarly current in the Citation despite the longer interval.

I have only done sim training which saves costs of flying. My 61.58 SPE recurrent is 4 days. Flightsafety won't go any faster despite the fact I could easily do it in 3 days, maybe even 2. Oh well.


While the standards are higher, ATP level, it is easier to achieve those standards in a jet. The plane doesn't change trim with power, for example, unlike a turboprop. The pitch control is more fine. You have nice instruments with a flight director. And so forth.

If someone is scared they can't cut it as a jet pilot, just get some sim time to see. It really isn't a hard airplane to hand fly at all. The things that will separate jet pilots from others are systems, procedures, and performance charts. There's more book work in a type rating than anything else. The flying itself is relatively easy.


It is really nice to take along people on trips. I wouldn't own a jet for flying solo.


Have you flown commercial lately? I'd rather fly with a prop than fly commercial for sure!

Mike C.