I can not speak bad about the management of the C2Osh group. I attended last year for my first formation event, first OSH attendance and first time flying to camp. It was an amazing experience and the best way for a single pilot first time attendee to get there safely.

I am not sure if anything was done during the arrival that was unsafe or a violation of any rules. I attended a well run and organized pre flight clinic that was all about safety and procedure. The two trainers were CFI’s and had many years of attending. They provided me and the other attendees with a large dose of training and formation information, ie PDF’s web links and the like. I was attending a formation clinic for the first time as well. I can not fathom how one can be so unsafe as described above and others appear to be well run. I can say that at the pre flight briefing before our departure there were some big feeling know it alls who had no interest in the brief. Talking and sharing war stories being generally disruptive. Maybe a few of those people were the problem. I think a lot of pilots suffer from this type of blowhardery.

I do know that in a group of 100 plus planes and pilots there were only 2 mechanical issues on the departure. Also there was one or two radio issues. The staging, the briefing and the departure was extremely well organized. All the models were parked together in the flights in order of departure. The lead pilot was a multi year veteran. The second plane was a two year attendee and the third position was a newbie such as myself in all the elements. The I think one group of three got a bit close to the group ahead of them due to a navigation issue. I attended the after flight brief and a few things were mentioned. Apparently the FAA wanted the whole group airborne before the first aircraft was allowed into the airspace. This added a longer leg at the start before the first plane could turn towards the field. I think that was a regulation that was new due to the large amount of time the year before took to get all the planes in the year before. (Something about a bonanza or two landing at the notamed closed airfield they were departing from in the middle of a mass departure)

I intend to fly this arrival again and totally disagree on the claims of unsafe practices. I’d love to know what the FAA issue is.

I, too, would like to hear more of the "why" from the FAA.

Perhaps they take too long or have not properly managed the arrival window?

Just follow the guidance in the How To's thread. Your post didn't work because of the blank space between the YT code blocks

[youtube]https://youtu.be/D6JeXzCl4eU[/youtube]

OK, let's set the story straight. I did not participate the first few years but have flown the mass arrival for probably the last ten years. As Nixon said, "mistakes were made". I'm going to refer to the organizers of C2O here after as, "The Management".
The Management tried to be inclusive of all Cessnas... 150's through 310's. The speed and the level of the pilot proficiency was a real staging problem. But like Air Venture the Management tried to be inclusive and above all, safe.
To fly the arrival the PIC had to attend at least one training clinic which consisted of 2 to 3 hours of formation flying theory, then maybe 2 to 3 hours of actual formation flying/training, then debrief and finally fly home. It made for a long day. My guess is a large percentage of (the) pilots don't fly enough to stay current let alone in the sky flying formation. That said, year after year we put a lot of planes (last year was over a hundred) on the ground in a short amount of time and never bent any aluminum.
We were all staged at KUNU, checked in, if you were not checked in by 11, you were out. Then a two hour brief on KOSH weather, KUNU departure procedures, speeds, altitude, frequencies and KOSH runway. If you were uncomfortable with anything you could leave your plane at KUNU and take the van to OSH The Management then waited for the call from the FAA on our exact time slot. Then the dreaded radio check, if you missed your call you were out. And, yes, we usually used 36R and 36L at KOSH but that was ATC's decision not our call.
I truly believe that the C2O Management made it possible for several pilots and their passengers (wives) to safely fly to "The Show" that otherwise would never have gone. bk

In looking at the prep work and training required ahead of time, not to mention flying a precision formation of dissimilar aircraft into the worlds busiest airport....I don't understand how any of this is easier and/or safer than flying the standard Airventure approach that 10,000 other airplanes fly.

The Fisk arrival is a goat rope that puts a bunch of people (me included) off. If I ever go to Osh I will do it with B2osh or not at all.

Really??? I was watching the shitstorm of the Sunday arrival last year using my ipad and my sentry. It looked like a swarm of flies that came from every point of the compass before and even after the fisk point. I’ll gladly take my chances with a well organized and executed arrival of like model planes in a line of 100 all traveling the same SPEED and direction. The types may have been different but the speed for the whole formation was a strict 90kts. Most 150-210’s can fly that speed all day. I owed that to my passenger, my 17 year old son. His safety and mine were assured by this arrival in my opinion.

If you think releasing another 50-60 aircraft into the 10,000 gaggle is safe, give’er. I’m either going to arrive a few days early, and volunteer or maybe not go at all. I know I won’t be missed but i guess i am a survey sample of one. There were around 30 new people to airventure and the c2osh group, me included. a few told me they wouldn’t have came otherwise i felt the same.

The real solution is a revamp of the Fisk Arrival. It should be a temp Class B. Fully controlled within 50nm of Osh up to 10000’ no exceptions. Put everyone in lines to each of the available runways using vertical separation until well aligned and on speed.

The whole “yeah, everyone just head towards FISKE and look out the window real good for the other 10,000 airplanes going to the same GPS waypoint at the same altitude,” idea is ridiculous. Even the new procedure doesn’t help since it just moves the gaggle away from the airport and increases the time you spend in close proximity with a bunch of other aircraft of dissimilar performance with no one assuring separation. We all have radios now. We should all know how to use them. This would even make it easier on NORDO aircraft. Have a waypoint well away from Osh where they circle and wait for a light gun signal to proceed to the airport by a known (and known clear because of the ATC control in place for all other aircraft) route.

It seems to me, and apparently also to the FAA, that they put being inclusive over safety. Too inclusive of disparate speeds and also too inclusive of pilot experience, proficiency, and training requirements.

Trying to fly one formation with 4 or 5 different cruise speeds, IMHO, should have greatly increased the pilot requirements and also weather/visibility minimums. It would be much better to split the group. I would think two or at a max three different groups could accommodate the same range of aircraft with less risk. So what if the 150's can't camp right next to a twin or Corvallis? The Cherokees don't try to fly formation with cubs and seminoles.

The accident history, amazingly, does not bear this out.

The accident history, amazingly, does not bear this out.

The accident history, amazingly, does not bear this out.

I think I have arrived about every way you can to Airventure: the RIPON -> FISKE in a number of different aircraft, IFR in VFR conditions, IFR in IMC (this is wild -- I thought I was at the wrong airport. It was so calm), and with B2OSH.

Unless you can get a STMP-assigned flight plan and arrange IMC, the B2OSH arrival feels the safest way to arrive at OSH. I fly a Baron, so I don't have to worry about the hi/low question at FISKE, I'm flying with very similar aircraft.

Props to all of you guys who organize or help organize the regional training clinics for B2OSH and B2OSH itself. You go a great job!

--paul

The Fisk arrival is busy, but it's not nearly as crazy as it looks on the traffic display. It's doable without any special training, and I do not know of any significant number of near or actual collisions from it.

My C2O ground training was done by a senior member of The Management, and I can tell you that there was very little info conveyed that wasn't already in the powerpoint slide deck that could be downloaded from the website. I had questions about things I'd picked up from other formation groups and my own experience doing air operations, and found that he did not have answers. The training was about 30 minutes of info crammed into 2 hours.

IMO the biggest thing wrong with the Fisk arrival is the notion that you shouldn't pass a slow airplane. Going 90 Kt is bad enough (no control issues unless I lose an engine) but I'm sorry there's simply no way I can stay behind a Champ tooling along at 60 KIAS. The good news is that there's always a gap ahead of any airplane going slower than the standard pace so once you pass you won't necessarily mess up the spacing for the tower controllers.

The controllers have hinted (wink wink) more than once to me that it's OK to pass (safely) but it's till officially verboten. I understand that it would be even more chaotic than it is now if everyone started passing the plane ahead because it was going a few knots slower than their usual pattern speed but I think a clearly written option for passing when absolutely necessary would improve things.