Yes, and most companies do ask, especially if they have a flight department so that there’s someone who knows to ask, most seller’s who are savvy enough to ask aren’t going to let us take the airplane to a shop that isn’t well known anyway.

In many cases we are buying airplanes directly from an owner that is not represented by a broker, in this situation the seller is often trusting, that even though I’m representing the buyer, I’m not going to take advantage of them or intentionally get them in a bad situation.

One, you presume this is true but I highly doubt it it. Can you name a shop without insurance or is this a bogeyman you made up to spread FUD?

Two, you presume the independent shop will be more likely to break an aircraft. No evidence has been presented substantiating that. We do have evidence a big shop damaged a Hawker 850XP twice. I know of other big shop mistakes as well.


If the seller agreed to the shop, which is implied since they brought the airplane, the buyer has no liability.

Mike C.

How does the shop having insurance pay those back? None of the consequential damages to an uninsured party are covered.

The buyer is not the liable party and not the insured party and thus insurance isn't in play for them.

If the buyer did have liability in some twisted way, then the shop, seller, or seller's insurance can sue them. Indeed, the shop having insurance adds another possible plaintiff to the mix, the seller's insurance.

Your argument makes no sense.

Mike C.

How does the shop having insurance pay those back? None of the consequential damages to an uninsured party are covered.

The buyer is not the liable party and not the insured party and thus insurance isn't in play for them.

If the buyer did have liability in some twisted way, then the shop, seller, or seller's insurance can sue them. Indeed, the shop having insurance adds another possible plaintiff to the mix, the seller's insurance.

Your argument makes no sense.

Mike C.

How? The shop having insurance would be something the seller checks out first, so it isn't an issue regardless of which shop is being used.

You keep spreading FUD about independent shops by making up stuff. There are a lot of really good quality shops out there that are not national name brand high end that you pay extra for. The fact you don't know who those guys are is a hole in your knowledge that I, as a buyer, would find concerning. There is an entire part of the Citation ecosystem you don't think exists but is actually vital to the small owner/operator like myself.


Aww, so nice of you to protect that helpless seller by having your buyer pay more than they need to. Such a nice guy with other people's money.


Yes, the ones you can't name conveniently that are without insurance and break planes all the time.


I use the shop at my home field, Don Davis Aviation. Surely that's not news to anyone who reads my posts about doing maintenance at my home airport.

There are numerous shops which can save you 50% off the gold plated ones. I've already demonstrated that with my examples of fixes that saved tons of money. There are also statements by other actual owners saying the same.

Mike C.

How? The shop having insurance would be something the seller checks out first, so it isn't an issue regardless of which shop is being used.

You keep spreading FUD about independent shops by making up stuff. There are a lot of really good quality shops out there that are not national name brand high end that you pay extra for. The fact you don't know who those guys are is a hole in your knowledge that I, as a buyer, would find concerning. There is an entire part of the Citation ecosystem you don't think exists but is actually vital to the small owner/operator like myself.


Aww, so nice of you to protect that helpless seller by having your buyer pay more than they need to. Such a nice guy with other people's money.


Yes, the ones you can't name conveniently that are without insurance and break planes all the time.


I use the shop at my home field, Don Davis Aviation. Surely that's not news to anyone who reads my posts about doing maintenance at my home airport.

There are numerous shops which can save you 50% off the gold plated ones. I've already demonstrated that with my examples of fixes that saved tons of money. There are also statements by other actual owners saying the same.

Mike C.

Mike has repeatedly attacked my knowledge and experience and painted a false picture of limitations that are not true. He has implied that I'm just an overpaid consultant that is unnecessary and in experienced, especially in regards to what maintenance facilities we use.

I've asked him for a list of small Citation shops he has direct experience with, I hope he provides that.

Here's a list of small shops that I DO have direct experience with, shops that I have used in the past and that my clients use until this day. It is true that we don't typically use these shops for prebuy inspections, but that is because seller's reluctance and concerns about conflict of interest because many of these shop owners have become personal friends of mine over the years.

In no particular order...

1. East Texas Turbines - Tyler, TX
2. SR Aviation - Georgetown, TX. (though Scott is closing up shop, which is tragic, one of the best small Citation shops in the country)
3. Georgetown Turbines (King Air shop, but I'm hoping they will take on Scott's customers)
4. Turbine Aircraft Services - Bethany, OK
5. Mather Aviation - Sacramento, CA
6. Western Aircraft - Boise, ID
7. RBR Aviation - Dallas, TX
8. Legacy Aviation, Yukon, OK
9. Central Flying Service - Little Rock, AK
10. Deerhorn Aviation - Midland, TX
11. AeroAir - Portland, OR
12. Columbia Aviation - Columbia, MO (now Blackhawk)

Sorry, I know I haven't listed everyone here, if I left you off it was just because it slipped my mind!!

And my latest find is Delta Fox in Manassas, VA. I would recommend Charles and his team without hesitation, not only is he a great guy, but we took a 2011 Mustang that he had maintained to Textron San Antonio, other than the precoolers failing a pressure test, which he would have had no way of knowing as it is not a normal inspection item, the airplane had less than $500 of airworthiness discrepancies! That makes it, officially, the cleanest prebuy we have ever had done on anything less than a new airplane.

The reality is I spent most of my career working for stocking aircraft dealers, I have bought, operated, maintained and sold more turbine aircraft than I can count, including at least a dozen legacy Citations.

I've managed prebuys on multiple legacy Citations at multiple shops large and small, no offense Mike, but it doesn't sound like you've managed a single prebuy on a legacy Citation, so enough with your attempts at disparaging me and my experience.

SkyWay MRO just published their 2023 Citation catalog.

https://skyway-mro.com/wp-content/uploa ... 23_web.pdf

What is useful about this is that they list out the common inspections required for various Citation models and the base prices. So it serves as a reference for what things should or could cost. My local shop is about 30% less than these prices, so that gives you a feel for where they sit in the price scale. Textron doesn't publish a similar list to my knowledge, but one would reasonably expect it to be higher in most cases.

There catalog is not perfect, I see a few errors and oddities, but it can be used to get a feel for the numbers. Not every airplane is subject to the listed inspections (no phase 8 or phase 11 on my 560, my ox bottle is every 5 years, etc).

It is rare to find such a listing of prices, so their catalog does provide some insight.

SkyWay is the former Sierra folks who did the FJ44 STCs. Out of Uvalde, TX. There are folks who use them regularly on the CJP list.

Mike C.

Why did you argue against using smaller shops if you had such a list already?

Mike C.

Why did you argue against using smaller shops if you had such a list already?

Mike C.

I have very much enjoyed the back and forth here, despite the animosity. As a casual bystander I don't think Chip deserved the hard press from Mike but they both make good points. As with all airplanes there are different "classes' or "types" of owners. Open checkbook and money conscious. Income level doesn't necessarily dictate which class you fall into, it's more personality and time on your hands.

There will always be shops that cater to each type, the big name shops charge more because they can and because their overhead is higher, they tend to cater to the open checkbook crowd (same in every industry really, there's always the dichotomy).

On a semi related note, i browed through the catalog Mike attached and pretty much confirmed what I already expected. Jet parts are expensive
I can machine this door hinge on one of my CNC mills for under $100

Seeing that door hinge was not fun for me. LOL I just paid $10K for a stock Cessna new part when I could have got a better one for less. Like Mike always says research and knowledge can save you a lot.

That list for the 501sp is really good and shows the inspections are not that crazy. If you add all those up annually it's less than what I paid for Mirage and 421 maintenance over the years.

And nice the Phase 5 is 3 years. LOL I thought it was 2. So I have 3 years before I need that one again.

Chips defensiveness makes me wonder whats up. Chip, just admit that you guys are on opposite sides of the spectrum and both can be right. For you to be right does not mean Mike is wrong and vs verse.

As an example of what Mike is talking about. My bet is if Chip was helping me the Door hinge project would have been the $40K it was. If Mike was helping me or I worked it like he does the Door would have been half that. Neither are right or wrong. Some people like to use big name shops and have it be easy and others will take more time to save what they can.

Mike

Nope, I see why you think that, because that's the picture that was painted. Call any salvage yard that has Citation parts in the country and ask them if they know me.

If you had called me about the door hinge, I would have found someone who knew the best / cheapest way to get it repaired. My greatest resource is a very large rolodex.

I never realized how bad the Citation door is in comparison to the Phenom. Finally a plus in the Embraer bucket. I guess a benefit of having our landing gear nine feet tall allows for the door to be an air star.

Chip-

The price is really for the PMA