It's interesting how this thread has gone to a turboprop Vs. jet discussion. I've never owned a turboprop, but I've enjoyed over 1,000 hours in a Mustang. There are some significant differences in my opinion. Some have said you can get over the weather with either one. That isn't always the case. You can get over some weather in a turboprop and most weather in a jet. Mid February I was returning from Florida, and I crossed a large storm line over Louisiana. I was at the top of the layer at FL400 and circumnavigated the cells below. From FL350 and below it was a no go. If you're flying from coast to coast, you'll often have to cross a significant weather system somewhere and it's usually tall. Higher works much better. At the beginning of that trip I flew to St. Petersburg, FL from SW Oregon with one stop. Having a 7,700' cabin altitude at FL410 made it physically easier. The higher pressure diff. in jets is a big plus. Finally, I definitely agree with Tarver in that Citations are built like tanks, regardless of the age. They're more durable than most TPs. If you have one that's current on maintenance, you have one that's likely to last.

Pretty simple. Only reason you buy a Meridian over a jet is to save money.

The jet out performs the TP in every way. Not even close.

501sp is super easy to fly. Way less stressful. Climbing at 4000fpm you just get thru the bumps and weather and are on top so fast. Knowing that if you have an engine go you are fine and can still climb is so so nice.

Cabin comfort in a 501 is 100x better than a PA-46 again not even close.

The guys paying $2M+ for SETP just to save some money on Jet A seem silly to me.

Yeah a jet uses more fuel. Because it goes faster and is safer. Period.

So again if you can afford it buy the Jet. Every time.

Just did a trip today with 8 passengers from Van Nuys to Provo in 1:20 and used 1500lbs of fuel. Ok there was a little tail wind. Haha

Mike

That's kind of a big reason, maybe the most important reason in aviation.

Meridian is lower operating cost for higher up front money. It all depends on what works best for your finances and your emotional state. Does saving $750K when buying it last long enough to cover paying for fuel later?


https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N45 ... /KVNY/KPVU

Not a lot of great places to glide in for a landing if you have no engine power.

224 gallons, $1086 in fuel, 485 nm great circle. Wind aided by about 90 knots.

N45AF is Williams converted, so will be a little bit faster and less fuel than the stock 501.

Mike C.

But it’s not cheaper to fly a SETP than a jet like the 501sp.

A SETP is more capital cost and less fuel 501sp is more fuel and lower cap cost.

I get to decide what I spend on my air travel. During the pandemic my plane sat and I paid very little for it to sit while the SETP guy was paying triple cap cost.

If I don’t fly for a month it’s no big deal as I pay for little in comparison to what a SETP would cost to sit there.


When we departed Van nuys it was IFR and 700ft ceilings. Pretty much on instruments right after rotate and didn’t pop out until we were well out of the valley. In a SETP I would have been super nervous and in fact would not have taken off. With the jet if we had an engine issue we would continue our climb and get out of the valley and land somewhere with no weather. You can’t put a value on that.

Oh and when we flew out to Van nuys we had 100kt head winds. Wouldn’t want to do that down low for an extra hour or more in a SETP. We were high and smooth for less time. Again priceless

You just can’t compare the two types of aircraft and it’s in my opinion over the entire year I pay less to fly my 501sp than I would if I owned a SETP.

If a guy can buy a Meridian he can buy a 501sp.

Mike

Also my PA-46 was the most expensive annual of all the planes I have owned. I have been thru all phase inspections for my 501sp for the first year and it’s way less than I paid for my first annual on my Mirage.

The PA-46 is a delicate airframe in comparison and very expensive to maintain.

Oh and you have to get training on any aircraft that flys in the flight levels. The in aircraft training is the same for a Meridian and a 501sp. Same time same recurrent. Only difference is the type rating cost more. But it’s no more work or time.

I see a lot of guys flying SETP because they think it’s hard to get a type rating. Just not true.

Mike

I'll chime in on the Meridian vs Mustang. All things equal, the Mustang will cost more, but not double. Insurance will be higher, training will be higher, fuel burn will be higher, maintenance at a specialty shop (West Star or Textron) will be higher, the engine reserves/overhaul will be higher.

The Mustang is a phenomenal aircraft and I hope to own one some day. I'm almost in a position too, but for numerous reasons I will not own a Meridian although that would be the most logical "entry" level turbine. Training/experience isn't a factor for me, but costs are. I can stomach the meridian DOC and fixed costs, but make no mistake the Mustang will cost more and that may be a deciding factor for many people.

Our managed TBM on the other hand is much better built, sturdy, and faster although I'm not joking when I say some years the TBM has cost more in MX than all but our Excel. I will not own a TBM over a Mustang, I'd rather fly one than a Meridian, but I'd rather pay the bills on the Meridian over any other turbine aircraft.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

FWIW
I know guys who moved from Meridians to Eclipses and they claim an Eclipse costs less to operate

Still love my Eclipse after 14 years of ownership. And fuel costs are not an issue

Including loan interest payments? Or the equivalent loss of investment return?

The legacy Citation series is quite a bit different than the Mustang or CJ series. You don't need a specialty shop to maintain it, it is pretty basic, and a lot of shops can do the work. I have a local shop doing my work. There are high amounts of used and aftermarket parts. Not much is unknown about them.

Mustang is a unicorn jet which has parts problems since it shares so little in common with other Citations (there are Mustangs AOG right now for a precooler issue). CJs are much newer and there is less old school field knowledge and their culture is factory service centers and hourly parts programs. CJ parts do share somethings with legacy series, but a lot of parts are only available from the factory.

A jet will cost more to operate, no question, I figure about double per mile versus a Meridian. Headwinds, weather, payload limitations, and other factors may make it less than a factor of two on any given day.

The safety and passenger experience is, of course, quite a bit different.

You can buy a 501 at $575K (advertised on BT right now). You can buy a Meridian at about $1.2M (about the best price on controller.com). In 5 years, I doubt the 501 will be under $400K market value, but the Meridian could be $700K. Don't for get to factor in that downside risk, plus the cost of money in those 5 years. Buying fuel is an ongoing pain, capital costs and market depreciation are one time painful events.

Mike C.

If you only you could buy an Eclipse with a Garmin EFIS and GTN, it would be outstanding.

The basic idea is good, the execution stunk, and the support ecosystem is questionable.

Mike C.

Michael P., I have a question for you since you were flying a Malibu just a few years ago.

Did you find there were flights you did in the Malibu that you wouldn’t do in the Citation, like the short hops? Or was your requirement only to get the best traveling plane you could?

Example: if you wanted to go fly 100 miles for a lunch run, the level of effort and expense in the Malibu is about the same as a Bonanza (for comparison). That’s not the same with the Citation.

A 100 mile breakfast run wouldn’t be as financially out of line in a Meridian if that is what one wanted to do also.

I ask because the hobby side of flying is a real obstacle to me wanting to move up the ladder. I’d have to keep two planes

If you only you could buy an Eclipse with a Garmin EFIS and GTN, it would be outstanding.

The basic idea is good, the execution stunk, and the support ecosystem is questionable.

Mike C.

Absolutely. Haha there are flights I would for sure do by myself in the Malibu that I won’t do in the Citation.

No way I am flying a jet by myself to LA often. But I flew my Malibu and even 421 alone a lot. But that’s a matter of raw trip cost. I am cheap and would rather fly commercial if it’s just me to LA.

It’s all about money. My point is there are a lot of guys flying SETP that could totally afford a jet.

Mike

I've got a question for the Mikes.

Let's say a fella didn't want to throw the keys away to a service center, but also didn't have the amount of time (or inclination) the two of you do to chase parts, read service manuals, and diagnose issues themselves.

Is there a middle ground that lets someone like that own a 501SP for 30-50k a yr in blended mx on LUMP? Or is there simply "uninvolved owner getting fisted by the SC," "Ciholas/Tarver with a second job as mx manager," and nothing in between? If there is such a middle ground, how does one access it?

-J

Not a Mike, but I’ll chime in. There are many competent Citation shops. I was also going to respond to Corey’s comment about the Mustang needing a specialty shop or CSC. I use an independent shop that services lots of jets including all models of Citations. It costs half of what the service center charges. Although there aren’t as many shops for Mustangs as legacy Citations, there are still a bunch of them. For legacy Citations there are numerous good choices for service. Mike C. does an awesome job of managing his maintenance and repairs. It would be difficult to do it better. He has the right qualities for that work. For someone that needs to be less involved, there are still shops that will be reasonable. So yes, there is a middle ground.

Yes, just about any independent shop can do that.

$50K/year is $300K over 6 years on a LUMP, which seems quite high since that is one phase 1-4 and one phase 1-5 over that time. I would be shocked if I get anywhere near that.

My phase 1-4 done late last year was about $25K and included an overhaul of my air cycle machine. I should be really light on maintenance work the next 2 years and then I have phase 1-5. I figure that's maybe $50-60K but it lasts 6 years.


Definitely those kinds exist. The CJ types do that a lot, the legacy types not so much. The FSC wants to make every plane "good as new" and that's just inappropriate for a legacy series.


I am more involved than most, but it doesn't have to take a lot of time. The primary task is not wrench turning, but sourcing parts and outside vendors. Having a good list of salvage yards, knowing who to talk to directly for getting parts worked on (avoiding the middleman), and so forth really helps.

For example:

My air cycle machine needed an overhaul, had 5000 hours on it and was not performing well, and was kind of seized, in fact. My heat exchanger as well. I'd heard horror stories about how expensive it is to overhaul an ACM, so was anxious.

Textron option was $24,279 exchange with $50,000 core charge for ACM. Seized units don't get all the core charge back per the notes on the parts website, so I wasn't going to get all that core charge back. Heat exchanger was $7169 with $45,000 core charge. Probably looking at close to $50,000 realistically, for both.

Qualified Technologies is the actual company who does the work to overhaul the ACM units Textron provides. Sent my unit directly to them, full ACM overhaul was $10,000 and done in 10 days. They also overhauled my heat exchanger for $500 (not a typo). Total cost $10,500.

In a few hours time, and with some guidance from other Citation owners, I saved about $40,000, maybe more depending on core charges.

Similar story on my right hydraulic pump. Salvage yard cost $200 (not a typo) for the pump, Textron wanted ~$35,000 to install new pump that required adaption.

Just those two events are $75,000 saved on a few hours invested. Now that's a good return!

The more informed you are, the more money you save.


Ask other Citation owners, ask shops nearby. I help a lot of Citation owners cut their costs on the CJP website, so you aren't alone. This is a great advantage of being in a larger ecosystem. CJP does cost $500/year, but comes with a $500/year coupon for parts or service at Textron, so net zero if you buy any parts from Textron (which are often cheaper than anywhere else for generic stuff, amazingly, so you will use it).

https://www.citationjetpilots.com/

Mike C.